Special Power: Transform

[Cona Chris]

I was thinking about this, and then saw that the casualoblivion mentioned in a post that he places figures at the point of where the robot/vehicle was defeated.

Logically, this makes sense, but using the same logic, then wouldn't Kenobi be put on the spot where Boga was defeated (since Ben was riding Boga) and Ghost Rider on the spot where his motorcycle mega was defeated?

I guess most special powers in Attacktix don't make logical sense when applied to a "real battle". For example, if Rodimus comes up white, a trooper comes into play (but thank you very much for sitting on the sideline this whole time when we could have used you Mr. Trooper!).

Perhaps I'm thinking about this too much. Anyways, I put the figures into play via the Transform in the starting area - but I can see either way...

[dvandom]

Given how everyone in Energon and Cybertron has canned transformation sequences that often involve them flying or jumping around extensively, I have no problem with coming in at the starting area. It's just where they end up after the transformation sequence is over.

---Dave

[grievous]

While I personally wish that Transform made the figure come into play where the previous mode fell, I still play as "pure" of a game as possible. Therefore, I play Transform like it has been ruled.

However, I absolutely despise the logic of the power. Recruit makes sense because it is in the terms of the game. I've always just considered Recruit to either, A.) do exactly its name where the figure brought into play was recently recruited into the squad/army or B.) the figure brought into play wasn't at the site of the battle until, by coincidence, he made it there just as the Recruiting figure fell.

Transform, however, makes no logical sense. Dvandom's reasoning via the "jumping around" from Energon and Cybertron is using a technical aspect from the series to explain the power. Attacktix is meant to be "in-universe" and therefore I don't like the "Energon/Cybertron" reasoning.

Transform currently takes on the logic of "Super Optimus Prime drives onto battlefield, Optimus gets shot, Optimus drives back to base, Optimus transforms, Optimus exits base". The logic is absolute crud.

I'm currently considering making an entire thread about "In-Universe Special Powers Logic" so I can talk about this more.

EDIT:
Oh, yeah, and to quickly rebuttal Cona Chris's bit about Boga/Ghost Rider's Motorcycle and having Kenobi/Ghost Rider appear where the Mega fell, I give you this. All you have to do is assume that when the motorcycle was destroyed, Ghost Rider was flung from wreckage back to the starting line. When Boga was killed, she reared up at the last second, sending Obi-Wan flying backwards to the starting line. Or perhaps either figure jumped backwards off their vehicle/steed just as they were killed/destroyed and ended up at the starting line. Again, logic quickly takes care of this seeming error in "in-universe" power issues.

[thecasualoblivion]

We transform the figure where it fell. We call it a house rule.

The reasoning is that Transform is a unique power, and Transformers need something to set them apart, so we do it that way.

There was also the logic argument Cona Chris mentioned, but it has to do with the above statement as much as logic.

[Phoenix]

We've played you transform where it was defeated too, for the same reasons you've stated thecasualoblivion.

[thecasualoblivion]

phoenix said:

We've played you transform where it was defeated too, for the same reasons you've stated thecasualoblivion.

It changes some of the figures to do it that way. Megatron is better from the starting line, Super Optimus Prime works well either way. Skyblast though is a god if he Transforms where he fell.

[YodaBreaker]

grievous said:

Transform, however, makes no logical sense. Dvandom's reasoning via the "jumping around" from Energon and Cybertron is using a technical aspect from the series to explain the power. Attacktix is meant to be "in-universe" and therefore I don't like the "Energon/Cybertron" reasoning.

Err...that sound "in universe" to me, given that it relies on mechanics demonstrated in that universe.

Transform currently takes on the logic of "Super Optimus Prime drives onto battlefield, Optimus gets shot, Optimus drives back to base, Optimus transforms, Optimus exits base". The logic is absolute crud.

Based on what logic, exactly? I've never read this particular interpretation in rule books or anything like that. If this is your opinion, then I can understand that. However, I'm not sure where else you'd be getting this particular logic.

I'm currently considering making an entire thread about "In-Universe Special Powers Logic" so I can talk about this more.

Could be interesting, but I'd suggest defining your terms from the outset to make it easier to understand. As it is, I'm not sure where you're coming from.

For what it's worth, I think Transform should have been something more than just Recruit. Why give the same special power alternative names in different licenses, unless that special power's name in one universe makes no sense in another universe (e.g., "Force Push" in SW being translated to "Thunderclap" in Marvel)?

[grievous]

beevomit said:

grievous said:

Transform, however, makes no logical sense. Dvandom's reasoning via the "jumping around" from Energon and Cybertron is using a technical aspect from the series to explain the power. Attacktix is meant to be "in-universe" and therefore I don't like the "Energon/Cybertron" reasoning.

Err...that sound "in universe" to me, given that it relies on mechanics demonstrated in that universe.

While it technically does follow the mechanics in the universe, I've always felt that the weird jumping around mid-battle in the cartoon was nothing more than confusing way to both save time in the cartoon and not have to deal with having to draw more animation than required. It just seems as more of a "camera trick" used by the director than an actual tactic used in-universe by the characters.

Transform currently takes on the logic of "Super Optimus Prime drives onto battlefield, Optimus gets shot, Optimus drives back to base, Optimus transforms, Optimus exits base". The logic is absolute crud.

Based on what logic, exactly? I've never read this particular interpretation in rule books or anything like that. If this is your opinion, then I can understand that. However, I'm not sure where else you'd be getting this particular logic.

My theory is based on in-game logic. Not as Attacktix as a game but as an extension of an actual war. It's more along the lines of being "inside" the game rather than merely playing it. Visualize an Attacktix game as an actual battle between actual beings/figures. Following the line of thought of being an actual figure in a war between Attacktix squads, the logic above makes perfect sense. Your ally, say Battle Ravage, scores a hit on Super Optimus Prime Vehicle Mode but Optimus is white. Following the logic of the Transform power in Attacktix, then Super Optimus drives back to his base before transforming rather than doing so on the spot and blasting Battle Ravage in the face.

I'm currently considering making an entire thread about "In-Universe Special Powers Logic" so I can talk about this more.

Could be interesting, but I'd suggest defining your terms from the outset to make it easier to understand. As it is, I'm not sure where you're coming from.

My theory of "logical powers" is explained above but, in a nutshell, it involves viewing an Attacktix battle as an actual war. I finished the article and posted it a few hours ago. It can be found here

[Yaggleberry Finn]

I would prefer that figures Transform on the spot, but I play it the same as Recruit. I'm currently the only one I know that has an extensive Transformers army, so I feel like I'm cheating if I'm the only one who gets to take advantage of a house rule. If there were more TF Attacktix fans around here then we'd probably play it as Transform on the spot.

[vamspapi]

yaggleberryfinn said:

I would prefer that figures Transform on the spot, but I play it the same as Recruit. I'm currently the only one I know that has an extensive Transformers army, so I feel like I'm cheating if I'm the only one who gets to take advantage of a house rule. If there were more TF Attacktix fans around here then we'd probably play it as Transform on the spot.

I tend to play with Transform being where the figure was defeated, but if people don't like the rule when I play them, then I don't play with it. And I have a almost exclusively Transformers Attacktix collection.

[thecasualoblivion]

Me and my group generally just play with my figures, and over half of my Attacktix are Transformers, so its all fair as far as thats concerned.

I have noticed one odd side effect for Transforming figures on the spot:

It generally happens with Super Optimus Prime and Skyblast. It requires a striker and a shooter or two shooters, with the shooters at close range. Both the robot modes of Super Optimus Prime and Skyblast are very powerful at close range, and both of their powers have a low activation rate. So what you do is to send your striker/shooter #1 to kill the vehicle(if using a striker trying not to hit it far), and then have the second shooter kill the robot mode after it Transforms, since in all likelihood its the most dangerous figure on the table at that point.

This happens a lot, possibly even the majority of the time when we play with Transform with our house rule.

[YodaBreaker]

grievous said:

While it technically does follow the mechanics in the universe, I've always felt that the weird jumping around mid-battle in the cartoon was nothing more than confusing way to both save time in the cartoon and not have to deal with having to draw more animation than required. It just seems as more of a "camera trick" used by the director than an actual tactic used in-universe by the characters.

Perhaps so, but it's important to recognize that this is your opinion, and it's not the only way to interpret these things. In fact, the onscreen action that's there seems to be at least a fair guide as to what really happens "in universe."

For example, what if it's a way to deal with the realities of what happens when a blast blows a body backwards in a battle? Perhaps the robot or vehicle is smacked so far back that it can assume its other form only after rolling back to its starting area, where a barrier or something similar might have been erected?

My theory is based on in-game logic. Not as Attacktix as a game but as an extension of an actual war. It's more along the lines of being "inside" the game rather than merely playing it. Visualize an Attacktix game as an actual battle between actual beings/figures. Following the line of thought of being an actual figure in a war between Attacktix squads, the logic above makes perfect sense. Your ally, say Battle Ravage, scores a hit on Super Optimus Prime Vehicle Mode but Optimus is white. Following the logic of the Transform power in Attacktix, then Super Optimus drives back to his base before transforming rather than doing so on the spot and blasting Battle Ravage in the face.

Ah, but there are many ways in which this can break down. Trying to take the metaphors of special powers too literally leads to the same absurdities of taking the "move all, attack twice" rule. Just keep in mind that there are multiple "in-game logic" rulesets that can be constructed. Games are really more skirmishes (or at most, battles) between teams, rather than actual wars. Thus, the notion of reinforcements being "radioed in" from a "backups" rear guard area isn't terribly farfetched.

My theory of "logical powers" is explained above but, in a nutshell, it involves viewing an Attacktix battle as an actual war. I finished the article and posted it a few hours ago. It can be found here

I suppose I can comment on that article there, but essentially, I think you may be too insistent that your logic is the only way these powers can be viewed. I view the special powers as game mechanics first that may or may not correspond to real-world happenings. Capture is an odd one to try to explain, as is Stun. A valiant effort, though

[grievous]

Perhaps so, but it's important to recognize that this is your opinion, and it's not the only way to interpret these things. In fact, the onscreen action that's there seems to be at least a fair guide as to what really happens "in universe."

For example, what if it's a way to deal with the realities of what happens when a blast blows a body backwards in a battle? Perhaps the robot or vehicle is smacked so far back that it can assume its other form only after rolling back to its starting area, where a barrier or something similar might have been erected?

Yes, it is my opinion as far as the "Transform works via Energon/Cybertron teleport transform". In fact, when really thinking about it, I guess it semi-does make sense (I still see it as no different than the director shouting cut and the animators being lazy, though) when used with Energon/Cybertron based figures. However, what about when they get around to G1, Beast Wars, and every other TF series? Those characters transformed where they stood.

However, you've already "pulled a Grievous" and figured that one out. I really like the idea of a figure flying backwards towards the starting line (I use that in my article to logically explain Boga/AT-RT/Ghost Rider on Motorcycle), so I'll now consider Transform somewhere between nearly logical and just plain logical.

Ah, but there are many ways in which this can break down. Trying to take the metaphors of special powers too literally leads to the same absurdities of taking the "move all, attack twice" rule. Just keep in mind that there are multiple "in-game logic" rulesets that can be constructed. Games are really more skirmishes (or at most, battles) between teams, rather than actual wars. Thus, the notion of reinforcements being "radioed in" from a "backups" rear guard area isn't terribly farfetched.

Yes, multiple logics can be created in the case where there is not already a logic. I'm always trying re-write Geometry because I never get around to the actual reasonings behind everything and seem to find ways to make it better. However, once I find the logic that fills in the gap, then I have to stop complaining. However, with Attacktix, there is no logic. Someone could decide all the powers could happen because the figures ate Nachos!

Back-ups coming in from a rear guard to make sense if you think in terms of a small scale skirmish rather than full scale war. In the case of a skirmish, it would make sense that a figures would be held back so as not to waste them but then, when one figure to many dies (AKA the one with the Recruit power), the Commanding Officer sends in the backups. Nice job, you pulled another "Grievous".

I suppose I can comment on that article there, but essentially, I think you may be too insistent that your logic is the only way these powers can be viewed. I view the special powers as game mechanics first that may or may not correspond to real-world happenings. Capture is an odd one to try to explain, as is Stun. A valiant effort, though

Yeah, Capture was the only one where I really had to stop and start twisting things before coming up with the amnesia concept. It just seems like something Boba Fett would do. Stun can also be explained by saying that the guy tazered people just as he died.

Finally, my little ending about "iron-clad logic" and "out hairsplitting" is a bit of an inside joke that probably required its own set of smilies rather than relying on the ones related to the "to much time on my hands" sentence. A very, very annoying thing I do around my house is over analyze things and events to the point where everyone around me just feels like beating the snot out of me. It's a gift, ;D.

I did mention that the "move all, attack twice" and "armies take turns" rules into account as illogical at the start of the article. I could probably explain that away via the two armies having to constantly await orders, therefore causing there movements and attacks to appear to be in turns. The attack twice rule can be explained by saying that each army is running low on ammunition, lightsaber power cells, and all the figures are very tired and relying on caffeinated beverages. All of these work towards forcing the figures to only be able to make two attacks per turn. However, these are, like Stun and Capture, stretching the limits of logic to fit my purposes. In an actual war, I highly doubt the CO would even bother to send troops in to a small skirmish when they're tired and running low on supplies. Still, it's one way to explain things.

Thanks for the response to the article, Yodabreaker. I really enjoy messing with logic in games and books, and movies, so having someone actually respond to my ideas rather than just blow them off is very nice.

[grizz]

I had up to this point been playing by the rules, however after reading this thread I think I am going to start using the house rule as it seems to make more sense and i don't think my family will have a problem with it.

[Deleted]

thecasualoblivion said:

Me and my group generally just play with my figures, and over half of my Attacktix are Transformers, so its all fair as far as thats concerned.

I have noticed one odd side effect for Transforming figures on the spot:

It generally happens with Super Optimus Prime and Skyblast. It requires a striker and a shooter or two shooters, with the shooters at close range. Both the robot modes of Super Optimus Prime and Skyblast are very powerful at close range, and both of their powers have a low activation rate. So what you do is to send your striker/shooter #1 to kill the vehicle(if using a striker trying not to hit it far), and then have the second shooter kill the robot mode after it Transforms, since in all likelihood its the most dangerous figure on the table at that point.

This happens a lot, possibly even the majority of the time when we play with Transform with our house rule.

I agree completely with what Grievous has to say.

We were kinda 'up in the air' about which to do but we found that the problem thecasualoblivion pointed out was happening WAY too often. It was in essence making "Transform"ing an almost useless power. You lose a character on your opponent's first attack, and are so excited that 'Transform' comes up white, but as soon as you put out the alternate mode in it's spot, it gets smacked down on your opponent's second attack. Now you just lost 2 figures in one turn.

We always put them into play at the starting line now.