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Post by greyelephant on Dec 27, 2006 17:08:17 GMT -5
We put it at the starting line. I do agree that it would work both ways.
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Post by thecasualoblivion on Dec 27, 2006 19:08:51 GMT -5
Me and my group generally just play with my figures, and over half of my Attacktix are Transformers, so its all fair as far as thats concerned. I have noticed one odd side effect for Transforming figures on the spot: It generally happens with Super Optimus Prime and Skyblast. It requires a striker and a shooter or two shooters, with the shooters at close range. Both the robot modes of Super Optimus Prime and Skyblast are very powerful at close range, and both of their powers have a low activation rate. So what you do is to send your striker/shooter #1 to kill the vehicle(if using a striker trying not to hit it far), and then have the second shooter kill the robot mode after it Transforms, since in all likelihood its the most dangerous figure on the table at that point. This happens a lot, possibly even the majority of the time when we play with Transform with our house rule. I agree completely with what Grievous has to say. We were kinda 'up in the air' about which to do but we found that the problem thecasualoblivion pointed out was happening WAY too often. It was in essence making "Transform"ing an almost useless power. You lose a character on your opponent's first attack, and are so excited that 'Transform' comes up white, but as soon as you put out the alternate mode in it's spot, it gets smacked down on your opponent's second attack. Now you just lost 2 figures in one turn. We always put them into play at the starting line now. Its not that big of a deal. A Transforming figure is more like one figure than two figures, so its more like taking two shots to kill one figure, which isn't really a big problem. Think of S4 Darth Vader, and moving two figures in close to take two shots on him, the second in case he recovers. Pretty much the same thing. Of the three, you can retreat Optimus Prime and Megatron to avoid being ganged up on if you're careful(they move 8 tix), and Skyblast is useless unless he Transforms on the spot, so all in all I prefer to Transform things on the spot.
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autobot1000
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Post by autobot1000 on Jan 5, 2007 17:16:53 GMT -5
transforming is like recovering, so if recoverers start at the starting line then fair enough
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Post by thecasualoblivion on Jan 5, 2007 19:45:48 GMT -5
We've played it both ways and it doesn't seem to unbalance the game any. Super Optimus Prime and Megatron are both good figures either way. Skyblast(Robot) is way too slow coming from the starting line, but highly effective when coming into play where the Jet mode fell.
We did have some difficulty with Super Optimus Prime getting ganged up on with two shots in one turn, but we don't really let figures get that close to the Truck anymore. With 8 speed, you can easily keep shooters out of point blank range.
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Post by squallgoku on Jan 18, 2007 6:53:11 GMT -5
Currently Recruit does the exact same thing as Transform am I correct? So maybe the whole 'Where the figure fell' has been accidentally omitted, otherwise why have two same powers with different names in the same game?
Im curious on an official ruling for this, as we like to play as pure a game too, and save houserules for special scenarios.
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Post by malform on Jan 18, 2007 8:09:49 GMT -5
Currently Recruit does the exact same thing as Transform am I correct? So maybe the whole 'Where the figure fell' has been accidentally omitted, otherwise why have two same powers with different names in the same game? Im curious on an official ruling for this, as we like to play as pure a game too, and save houserules for special scenarios. Recruit has always read "Put _____ into play from your back-ups.". And because you are bringing in a different figure than what was killed, it would start at the starting line. Pretty logical. Then there is recover, which has always read "Stand up if you have a _____ in play.". In this instant the figure would stand up exactly where it fell. The real controversy here is whether transform is like recruit, or recover. I believe the general consensus is that it is like recruit, and the alt mode of that figure would start out at the starting area. I personally disagree with this assessment, it shouldnt start back at the starting area because you arent really bringing in a different figure... Its a alternate form of the same figure. I feel that transform should be a completely new special all upon its self. When a figure with transform is "defeated" and turns up white, the "defeated" figure should not go into the defeated area, in my opinion it should go into back-ups. Then when that alt mode is defeated, if it comes up with a white transform, it should be able to bring back the first incarnation of itself that was "defeated" the first time. They should be able to swap back and forth until one doesnt turn up white. Because in my eyes a transform should not constitute a defeat at all. If megatron transforms to gun mode his robot form isnt defeated or dead, thats crazy. He is able to transform back and forth at will, and this is how the special SHOULD work.
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Post by squallgoku on Jan 18, 2007 8:20:09 GMT -5
Recruit has always read "Put _____ into play from your back-ups.". And because you are bringing in a different figure than what was killed Insecticons recruit other insecticons, but that is more a type of transformer than a unique named one, but that matter is moot anyway since you can create an all Optimus prime army if you wanted to. It seems to me that Transform was supposed to be a different and new power but instead was described wrongly, more likely that is should be a cross between recover and recruit to the lines of "stand up defeated figure then replace with (Same name) from your backups" Thats my take on it.
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Post by Yaggleberry Finn on Jan 18, 2007 9:22:58 GMT -5
I feel that transform should be a completely new special all upon its self. When a figure with transform is "defeated" and turns up white, the "defeated" figure should not go into the defeated area, in my opinion it should go into back-ups. Then when that alt mode is defeated, if it comes up with a white transform, it should be able to bring back the first incarnation of itself that was "defeated" the first time. They should be able to swap back and forth until one doesnt turn up white. Because in my eyes a transform should not constitute a defeat at all. If megatron transforms to gun mode his robot form isnt defeated or dead, thats crazy. He is able to transform back and forth at will, and this is how the special SHOULD work. Malform, that's absolutely brilliant! I wish I would've thought of it! I think you've got rock-solid reasoning. If it was like that, going back to the starting line wouldn't bother me at all. And it would also solve the problems of having such a limited space in your back-ups and requiring so many multiples of the Transform figures.
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haldu2
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Post by haldu2 on Jan 18, 2007 10:29:43 GMT -5
Here's my prob with Malform's idea, Transform has a way higher ratio of white to black then recruit does. At least for the veichals. So you could quite possibly stay alive forever. Plus this higher ratio does make it "new" in that transforming is almost a gaurentied and recruit is just if you happen to convince them to die for you. I play at the starting line because it just makes it easier to do what it says on the bottom. Plus a ton of stuff in tix doesn't make story line sense.
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Post by malform on Jan 18, 2007 10:35:03 GMT -5
Malform, that's absolutely brilliant! I wish I would've thought of it! I think you've got rock-solid reasoning. If it was like that, going back to the starting line wouldn't bother me at all. And it would also solve the problems of having such a limited space in your back-ups and requiring so many multiples of the Transform figures. Sweet! Im glad others support the idea. Thats how I imagined transform would work when we all first learned it would be a special power, and I must say I was really disappointed when it appeared the general idea of transform was that it would be a recruit rip-off.. Now all we need to do is get enough people to support the idea, and we can start a petition to change the ruling of how transform works! ;D Here's my prob with Malform's idea, Transform has a way higher ratio of white to black then recruit does. At least for the veichals. So you could quite possibly stay alive forever. Plus this higher ratio does make it "new" in that transforming is almost a gaurentied and recruit is just if you happen to convince them to die for you. I play at the starting line because it just makes it easier to do what it says on the bottom. Plus a ton of stuff in tix doesn't make story line sense. Im sorry, but your objection doesnt make any sense to me. Yes, TF1 megatron and prime have a 20/26 for transform, but the robot forms only have 8/26. The potential for transforming back and forth the entire length of a game is practically non-existant. And even if it were a decent possibility it wouldnt have near the side effect on a game as does a multi attackback such as gold KAM or SVT vader. Yes it would be a more powerfull TF specific special, but hardly any "power creep" or anything. And the idea of a "gaurentied recruit" is just very puzzeling to me.
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Post by Cona Chris on Jan 18, 2007 12:37:50 GMT -5
Here's my prob with Malform's idea, Transform has a way higher ratio of white to black then recruit does. At least for the veichals. So you could quite possibly stay alive forever. Plus this higher ratio does make it "new" in that transforming is almost a gaurentied and recruit is just if you happen to convince them to die for you. I play at the starting line because it just makes it easier to do what it says on the bottom. Plus a ton of stuff in tix doesn't make story line sense. While I like this idea of using Transform, I would have to agee with haldu2 that it may make the these figures too powerful. But then again, there are some figures with a high recover rate already (Most striker Vaders, S2 Starter Kenobi, etc.) and I would guess the Transform isn't any different than that. I'll try this way out and see how it goes...
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Post by squallgoku on Jan 18, 2007 15:43:10 GMT -5
I agree, Gold SVT Vader's power is very powerful and can shift the balance of the game drastically. But having one transformer shift back and forth between forms doesnt compare to that, and the likelyhood of getting more than one transformation isnt too dependable.
With (off the top of my head) two autobots that transform and one decepticon, I dont think it will throw the balance drastically at all, except maybe slightly prolonging a game if there are many tranforming figures in play - either way thats fine by me.
Hopefully we'll get more vehicle/alternate mode transformers, even if just for sake of having them.
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Post by thecasualoblivion on Jan 18, 2007 21:58:01 GMT -5
The real controversy here is whether transform is like recruit, or recover. I believe the general consensus is that it is like recruit, and the alt mode of that figure would start out at the starting area. I personally disagree with this assessment, it shouldnt start back at the starting area because you arent really bringing in a different figure... Its a alternate form of the same figure. I feel that transform should be a completely new special all upon its self. When a figure with transform is "defeated" and turns up white, the "defeated" figure should not go into the defeated area, in my opinion it should go into back-ups. Then when that alt mode is defeated, if it comes up with a white transform, it should be able to bring back the first incarnation of itself that was "defeated" the first time. They should be able to swap back and forth until one doesnt turn up white. Because in my eyes a transform should not constitute a defeat at all. I have always believed that what Malform described is how the power should have worked. If I had been able to convince my friends of that, we'd have been playing like that the whole time, but instead we comprimised and play where the new form comes into play where the first figure fell. With the low success rates of the Robot modes, combined with using Gold Optimus and Megatron, Transform happening where the figure fell and the defeated figure going to the backups instead of the defeated pile is hardly game-inbalancing. The high percentage recover figures like Luke, Darth Vader, Obi-Wan, and even Boba Fett are all vastly more difficult to remove than the Transformers would be in the long run. To this point, Transformers generally lack an edge over Marvel and particularly Star Wars in figure quality. They have no 10pt strikers and few strikers at all beyond that, and very few strong 20pt figures as I would only rank Battle Ravage and Rodimus backed up by a Destroyer Droid to qualify as a strong figure for 20pts. Transformers doesn't really match up very well against Star Wars and Marvel because of this. A strong Transform power in the manner Malform described would do a lot to even the score.
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Post by malform on Jan 19, 2007 9:29:06 GMT -5
I have always believed that what Malform described is how the power should have worked. If I had been able to convince my friends of that, we'd have been playing like that the whole time, but instead we comprimised and play where the new form comes into play where the first figure fell. With the low success rates of the Robot modes, combined with using Gold Optimus and Megatron, Transform happening where the figure fell and the defeated figure going to the backups instead of the defeated pile is hardly game-inbalancing. The high percentage recover figures like Luke, Darth Vader, Obi-Wan, and even Boba Fett are all vastly more difficult to remove than the Transformers would be in the long run. To this point, Transformers generally lack an edge over Marvel and particularly Star Wars in figure quality. They have no 10pt strikers and few strikers at all beyond that, and very few strong 20pt figures as I would only rank Battle Ravage and Rodimus backed up by a Destroyer Droid to qualify as a strong figure for 20pts. Transformers doesn't really match up very well against Star Wars and Marvel because of this. A strong Transform power in the manner Malform described would do a lot to even the score. Yay, another supporter! I just cant express my disappointment enough about transform being a renamed recruit. Transforming is what makes a transformer, and it should be conveyed properly. I really feel they dropped the ball on what should have been a special that set transformers apart from the rest of the crowd, in a competitive way.
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Post by thecasualoblivion on Jan 19, 2007 9:31:58 GMT -5
They could explain our version of Transform as an optional rule in the series 2 rulebook, and hold that rule to be the case in tournaments which would basically extend that rule to most competitive play, which covers most of the games played by people on these boards.
People who prefer simplicity could always just play the old way of Transform=Recruit.
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