The Best Darn Team Ever Thread

[grievous]

Dang, that stinks. So much for slicing down an ally (by negotiation, technically still an opponent ) in a four-way battle royale's Darth Vader nine times in order to have a 290 point team of Jedi Knights, Wickets, and Obi-Wans. I guess seven will have to do. Nice find, though, and great prediction/guess/whatever you want to call it, annointed1.

[stvatt]

greyelephant said:

Posted by grievous on Yesterday at 8:18am May 29, 2007, 11:53pm, teddylord wrote:Still are you gonna kil 7 Sith or Vaders? Dude, Recover power. Each time Darth Vader stands up, next turn you can knock him down again to bring in another Jedi Knight. A constant wave of Jedi Knights coming into play, just because your opponent's Vader won't die!

But, how is Vader "defeated" if he "recovers". Doesn't count if he stands back up, only if he can't then he becomes defeated.



200 pt. team?

Well, I guess we will find out what team I like on June 9th won't we? ;D

You are acorrect that a Jedi would only come in to play if Vader did not recover. The Knocked Down = Defeated argument is too simplistic and flawed in that it does not take in to account WHEN a figure is defeated in relation to special effects. A figure is defeated unless its special ability keeps it in play, and only AFTER its own effect resolves.

Darth Vader is "defeated" but his special allows him to Recover. For some reason, some think it is plausible to interject other effects prematurely before Darth Vader resolves himself like the bringing in of a Jedi.

If a figure were considered "defeated" before the special activating, then it would equate the Recover ability with Rally. Say my S2-33 Mace is "defeated" but his special is white allowing a defeated Jedi to come back in play. Mace is already defeated, thus I can bring him back in to play.

We can all agree that this should not happen. The only way to prevent this from happening is if Vader (or any other figure) is not defeated if their special ability allows them to Recover. Second is to understand that individual figure effects must resolve before they themselves are considered "defeated" and before more general effects check. Ergo Knocked Down does not mean defeated, at least not right away. Knocked Down means it COULD be defeated.

[Radar]

Here's my post Tixcon 200 point team:

2x Armored Spider-man (20 pts)
5x Wicket (10 pts)
5x Electra (10 pts)
5x Greeto (10 pts)
1x R2-Q5 (10 pts)

And that is subject to change. I would probably put in a couple of Grievous Bodyguards after play-testing a little, maybe a 10 point Tournament Clone Trooper (move 8!), maybe even a Gold based Super Optimus Prime (40 pts). But that is generally my preferred 200 point team.

[grievous]

Stvatt, we've been through this. Hasbro's rules makes it insanely clear that Knock Down = Defeat. Please don't re-open this can of worms. It makes some people feisty *coughSuperflyTNTcough*

This post contains most of the rulings, mentionings, and various literature that proves that, according to Hasbro, a knock down is a defeat.

Key points include:
1. "When a figure is knocked over, it is defeated and taken out of the game." - Hasbro Quick Start Guide (note: This is for "basic play" in which powers and effects are null which is why no mentioning of special powers)

2. "Whenever your figure is defeated (knocked over), turn it over to learn its special power." - Hasbro Quick Start Guide

3. "Rally allows you to bring in a listed figure from your defeated pile." - Hasbro Starter Set CD-ROM (note: counterpoint to "Rally Mace Windu" argument)

4. "Special powers can affect the defeated figure or any other figure..." - Hasbro Quick Start Guide (note: Perhaps the key point that proves Vader is defeated before recovering)

Now, with that last one, ask yourself a question. What power other than a "Stand Up" power like Recover can effect the defeated figure?

Knock Down = Defeat in the official Hasbro rules. Killing Vader while having Ghost Yoda and Obi-Wan would indeed allow for Yoda's power to activate whether Vader recovers or not.

If you want to play otherwise and believe otherwise, fine. However, if you play by the official Hasbro rules then my team works perfectly.

EDIT:
By the way, does anyone else think that the Emperor and Yoda were made almost solely to counteract the high usage of Obi and Vader? It was a theory that hit me like a ton of bricks earlier today. Those two figures are highly used due to their special powers so Hasbro decided to add a balancing factor that makes using them counterintuitive. If that was the idea, it's a beautiful solution in theory but I wonder if the effects will be enough to make using Obi and Vader dangerous...

[superflytnt]

Nope. Obi Wan S2 Starter is still the best single figure in the game, and Vader S4 is a close second. Nothing will cause these to fade away or be diminished as I'd certainly take someone being allowed to bring in an extra fig or two in order to keep my OB1 in the game.

[grievous]

You sure? Let me put it this way.

You use Obi-Wan and I use S4 Vader, Greedo x3, Jedi Knight x3 with Emperor in back-ups (who gives a Specialist a free move and attack, not another figure). I slice down Obi-Wan with Vader which gives Greedo an automatic shot at anyone for free. I shoot down your just remaining Trooper and then shoot down Obi-Wan.

Sure, it isn't gamebreaking at all but it is something that makes you have to think before you play.

Now, let's look at the other side.

You have Vader and I have two S2 Starter Obi-Wan with two more in the back-ups along with Ghost Yoda. I slice down Vader, who recovers, with Obi-Wan and bring in ANOTHER S2 Starter Obi-Wan from back-ups. I then use my other Obi-Wan and slice Vader again to bring in a fourth S2 Starter Obi-Wan.

Now, that is a scary thought that should immediately cause nearly everyone to stay away from Sith and Vader. No one better say that isn't an immensely powerful Vader deterrent because, if they did, I'd have to call them crazy.

[stvatt]

grievous said:

Stvatt, we've been through this. Hasbro's rules makes it insanely clear that Knock Down = Defeat. Please don't re-open this can of worms. It makes some people feisty *coughSuperflyTNTcough*

This post contains most of the rulings, mentionings, and various literature that proves that, according to Hasbro, a knock down is a defeat.

Key points include:
1. "When a figure is knocked over, it is defeated and taken out of the game." - Hasbro Quick Start Guide (note: This is for "basic play" in which powers and effects are null which is why no mentioning of special powers)

2. "Whenever your figure is defeated (knocked over), turn it over to learn its special power." - Hasbro Quick Start Guide

3. "Rally allows you to bring in a listed figure from your defeated pile." - Hasbro Starter Set CD-ROM (note: counterpoint to "Rally Mace Windu" argument)

4. "Special powers can affect the defeated figure or any other figure..." - Hasbro Quick Start Guide (note: Perhaps the key point that proves Vader is defeated before recovering)

Now, with that last one, ask yourself a question. What power other than a "Stand Up" power like Recover can effect the defeated figure?

Knock Down = Defeat in the official Hasbro rules. Killing Vader while having Ghost Yoda and Obi-Wan would indeed allow for Yoda's power to activate whether Vader recovers or not.

If you want to play otherwise and believe otherwise, fine. However, if you play by the official Hasbro rules then my team works perfectly.

EDIT:
By the way, does anyone else think that the Emperor and Yoda were made almost solely to counteract the high usage of Obi and Vader? It was a theory that hit me like a ton of bricks earlier today. Those two figures are highly used due to their special powers so Hasbro decided to add a balancing factor that makes using them counterintuitive. If that was the idea, it's a beautiful solution in theory but I wonder if the effects will be enough to make using Obi and Vader dangerous...

Perhaps we need to make some distinction between "defeated" and "defeated pile" then. does a defeated figure not immediately go to the defeated pile? If a figure does not go to the defeated pile, then it can't really be considered defeated, can it? My goal is to preserve the difference between Rally and Recover. The current ruling equates the two, and to me that's a huge imbalance shift in the game. If Hasbro had meant for this why even bother making a distinction? I have a feeling that their QSG was made rather hastily, and not very thoroughly because it's focused on beginners rather than advanced battles. To treat it as gospel is leading us into problems. We can't possibly interpret a certain rule a certain way that leads to contradiction elsewhere, it's purely irresponsible.

The Emperor/Yoda effects very well could be a reaction to heavy Vader/OB use, but we are going to need some heavy clarification from Hasbro since they are adding a new layer to effects and timing. We can't expect to keep it as simple as the QSG states because they don't address the different special effects. Since we don't even have these figures yet, or an updated thorough rule book for advanced battles, I feel it is premature to be ruling on the subject matter.

In almost every CCG or other game i play there is a recognized system as to how effects are timed and the order in which they resolve. It makes sense that a Recover power would resolve first, causing the Yoda effect to draw a blank when looking for a defeated figure.

[superflytnt]

WELL....I think that .... nah, forget it. ;D

[stvatt]

I forgot to add my best darn team!

1xObi-wan Kenobi (S2 starter)
3xYellow Clone Trooper
1xClone Pilot
1xGold Ki-Adi-Mundi
1xYoda
2xJedi Knight
1xTion Medon
2xS4 Starter Han Solo

The name of the game is aggressive flexibility. You have heavy missile support until your strikers are in range, and should there be casualties there are three viable options to lead an attack in Yoda, Obi-wan, and Gold KAM. The support group consists of the 2 Jedi Knights and Tion Medon. The three troopers should hang back in defensive formation to protect the Han Solos, while the Clone pilot should be a diversionary lone target to provoke his charge ability.

[grievous]

stvatt said:

Perhaps we need to make some distinction between "defeated" and "defeated pile" then. does a defeated figure not immediately go to the defeated pile? If a figure does not go to the defeated pile, then it can't really be considered defeated, can it?

Let me ask you a question.

Is someone who died still considered dead before they are buried in the graveyard?

The answer: Absolutely.

Therefore, could it be possible for a figure who has been knocked down be considered defeated even before they are put in the defeated pile?

You decide .

My goal is to preserve the difference between Rally and Recover. The current ruling equates the two, and to me that's a huge imbalance shift in the game. If Hasbro had meant for this why even bother making a distinction?

Been there, done that, fixed it. Point 3 in my last post on this subject. It is specifically stated in the Attacktix CD-ROM that Rally targets the defeated pile. I'd assume that they felt there simply wasn't enough room to add in "from the defeated pile".

Also, let me ask you this question. Vengeance states a figure is removed from play. Vanquish states a figure is removed from play (this time the defeated pile). One sends the figure to the defeated pile, the other sends it to the final netherworld where nothing can target it. They both still have approximately the same wording, though. Does this mean that a Vengeance figure sends a figure to the same place a Vanquish figure sends one? No, there just is a wording bit that is solved by rulings. Same thing for Rally.

I have a feeling that their QSG was made rather hastily, and not very thoroughly because it's focused on beginners rather than advanced battles. To treat it as gospel is leading us into problems. We can't possibly interpret a certain rule a certain way that leads to contradiction elsewhere, it's purely irresponsible.

Wait, so what you're saying is that we shouldn't follow one of the few rules that Hasbro has never really contradicted?

The Emperor/Yoda effects very well could be a reaction to heavy Vader/OB use, but we are going to need some heavy clarification from Hasbro since they are adding a new layer to effects and timing. We can't expect to keep it as simple as the QSG states because they don't address the different special effects. Since we don't even have these figures yet, or an updated thorough rule book for advanced battles, I feel it is premature to be ruling on the subject matter.

What you want is to fundamentally re-write one of the primary rules that Hasbro has never gone back on simply because you feel that it doesn't work. You are free to do that in your personal house rules. There was an attempt to do this in the community rules. However, Hasbro is absolutely clear on how this part of the game is meant to be played by the official rules.

In almost every CCG or other game i play there is a recognized system as to how effects are timed and the order in which they resolve. It makes sense that a Recover power would resolve first, causing the Yoda effect to draw a blank when looking for a defeated figure.

There is timing:

A figure is defeated. You check if it's power activates. If it doesn't, the defeated figure goes to the defeated pile. If it does, then the effect happens. If that power involves standing up, the figure does. If the power is something else, the figure goes to the defeated pile. Simple!

Now, effects come into play at some point during this, I'd assume afterwards but that's just me. Hasbro hasn't completely ruled on this but I seem to remember hearing that Wolverine could, hypothetically, attack Vader after Vader has stood up and, therefore, the effect activates after the powers. That's just what I remember and it might have been a house rule or something don't quote me on it.


Now, I hate debating this. I keep saying the same thing and I keep hearing the same thing back. Now, as I've said, you are free to feel as if this is wrong. You are free to change your house rules to it. However, to say that you know better than Hasbro and to argue to change the rules for the whole darned community is wrong to me.

[YodaBreaker]

Seriously, if you want to debate the meaning of "defeated", take it here. Let's please keep this about team composition.

[greyelephant]

Posted by YodaBreaker on Today at 5:28pm Seriously, if you want to debate the meaning of "defeated", take it here. Let's please keep this about team composition.

Thank you Y.B., I could see where this was going.



Best team.......

You know what's so funny about making a best team? It's only as good as the opponent you are facing. Really, think about it.

With that said, I believe synergy is the #1 key to making a good team and possibly being able to overcome obstacles that are thrown your way.


Here is my team that I have been thinking about since Superfly's TOTS!

X2 GG (Double Lightsaber) (40) (WARRIOR KILLA!)
X2 OWK (Stand if you have a trooper) (60)
X5 Battle Droids (50)
x2 Rodimus (40)
X1 R2Q5 (10)

Backups

X2 Battle Droids (20)
X2 Destroyer Droids (80)



Obviously this will change once S5 comes out. I feel this team would be formidable against any opposing team.


Now here is what I want.

Give me a team you feel that can beat this one. I wish to try it out on a mock battle field.

[stvatt]

That's a pretty good team although I would consider swapping out 20 points for a couple Bodyguards to take advantage of movement and some support for your striker figures. Adds a bit more synergy! Also, the only other deficiency I see is a lack of larger missile launchers that can cause some damage until your strikers get in range. This of course could be considered a tradeoff by gaining an additional shot with the Destroyer.

I would pit my team against that. With all striking/shooting skills being equal it will come down to how many specials activate.

[greyelephant]

Posted by stvatt on Today at 6:42pm That's a pretty good team although I would consider swapping out 20 points for a couple Bodyguards to take advantage of movement and some support for your striker figures. Adds a bit more synergy! Also, the only other deficiency I see is a lack of larger missile launchers that can cause some damage until your strikers get in range. This of course could be considered a tradeoff by gaining an additional shot with the Destroyer. I would pit my team against that. With all striking/shooting skills being equal it will come down to how many specials activate.

Your 2 Hans are a great choice! I do like him a lot. Maybe would even consider bringing him in for 1 of my GG (D. lightsaber).


Anyways! Bring it on amigo.



BTW. I wish to readress that I didn't take series 5 into accounts. So please don't post your army against mine if you are going to use S5.

[stvatt]

greyelephant said:

Posted by stvatt on Today at 6:42pm That's a pretty good team although I would consider swapping out 20 points for a couple Bodyguards to take advantage of movement and some support for your striker figures. Adds a bit more synergy! Also, the only other deficiency I see is a lack of larger missile launchers that can cause some damage until your strikers get in range. This of course could be considered a tradeoff by gaining an additional shot with the Destroyer. I would pit my team against that. With all striking/shooting skills being equal it will come down to how many specials activate.

Your 2 Hans are a great choice! I do like him a lot. Maybe would even consider bringing him in for 1 of my GG (D. lightsaber).


Anyways! Bring it on amigo.



BTW. I wish to readress that I didn't take series 5 into accounts. So please don't post your army against mine if you are going to use S5.

Feel free to test! If you don't have a clone pilot you could certainly substitute another yellow trooper. I myself need to find one.

I actually have a S2 error Han that would be perfect for your team. Even though he's 30 points, his special is Rally 2x Droid Army figures!