Fair fights between lines?

[profanicon]

Okay, I had issues with the fairness of Transformers vs. Star Wars, but the Marvel figures I got last night (the Heroes Starter Set) really make me question the fairness of mixing the different lines.

For example, Spider-Man's web blast is stronger than ANY other shooter I have, including Megatron and Super Optimus Prime, yet he's only a 30 pointer. Sabertooth has a stronger strike than any other figure I have (House Rules don't permit me to use anymore, though... haha) and is very difficult to knock down.

I only have two starter sets so far, but it seems to me that the Marvel figures are going to be generally stronger (excluding Blackheart) and more stable (excluding Green Goblin) than the other lines.

Any thoughts on this?

[Radar]

Well, maybe a little. I think what happened was we got a LOT of really effective figures with the Marvel set that are similar to the many really effective Star wars figures that are similar to the few really effective Transformers figures.

I'm not sure that Marvel is better than the older good figures, but I could contend that the Marvel figures are better on average than other sets. In fact, I would say that Hulk and Pyro are the only two figures in Marvel that I would have any hesitation putting on a tournament team. So, I can see where you are coming from, but there are great figures in all set;... just more of them in Marvel.

[greyelephant]

I remember when TF first came out and everyone thought "Optimus is invincible, he is totally unfair". After some time playing with the newer figures we started to determine weaknesses that were not obvious at first.

Marvel is the same. We think they are invincible right now only because we haven't really tried out every scenario possible. Given time we will see that they are a great series 1, but defiantly beatable by either SW or TF.

[thecasualoblivion]

I think Transformers got a little hosed by their resistance to missile fire. Transformers are almost universally harder to knock over with missiles than Star Wars Attacktix, and in some cases such as Super Optimus Prime, Minicon, and the vehicles its a fairly extreme difference. I think the development team raised their point costs and nerfed their special powers to take that into account.

Now that us players have had the chance to use them, the defensive advantages of Transformers have been proven to not be worth the other costs, since striking(of which Transformers largely lack) and special powers win games.

I think the Marvel figures are more in line with the larger Attacktix world balance-wise, but I don't really see any of them being truly earth shattering. Multiple Attackback is the strongest special power in Attacktix, and if you noticed, there isn't a single multiple Attackback/Shootback figure among Marvel Attacktix, and even Transformers had the highly underrated Landmine.

M01 Spider Man has a weak strike that doesn't compare to the Jedi Knight or Wicket
M02 The Punisher isn't really cost effective
M03 Elektra's strike is hard to control and somewhat unreliable for multiple kills
M04 Electro is a good figure for the cost, but S4 Greedo and the Minicon I would call better 10pt shooters
M05 Pyro nobody really likes
M06 Beast is an incredibly good figure, and ranks with the better Attacktix of all times.
M07 The Hulk is an improved Chief Chirpa, and it remains to be seen if he's playable at all
M08 Captain America is very powerful but requires care and strategy to use.
M09 Wolverine is a prodder, and no prodder is overpowered.
M10 Spider Man has rescue which isn't great on a striker and his special effect is only really good on 200pt teams
M11 Thor isn't really worth 30pts
M12 Mystique isn't fast enough to be game breaking, but is a great figure
M13 Magneto can't be called good or bad without seeing how that bullet flies
M14 Venom isn't really worth 30pts
M15 Doctor Octopus has a limited special power
M16 Daredevil has some nice effects and synergy but is hardly game breaking
M17 Gambit is better than any Star Wars force blaster, though I don't think he can outshoot Overhaul
M18 Thing is a more expensive, tougher but crappier Kit Fisto
M19 Spider Man doesn't have the range or incredible defense of Super Optimus Prime(I've fired their missiles side by side, Super Optimus Prime's travels about 6 tix farther before reaching the table)
M20 Wolverine sucks
M21 Green Goblin is a little too easy to kill by knocking off the base
M22 Sabertooth isn't really that much harder to kill than Overhaul or the better Transformers, and is bad at getting multiple kills. Still a great figure
G03 Ghost Rider is a little hard to use, but can kill multiple figures easily and is a great figure
G04 Western Ghost Rider is fantastic
G05 Blackheart is not worth 40pts
G06 Abigor is great but doesn't have the team necessary to take advantage of his great special.

Spider Man Origins:
Spider Man--crappy strike but great power, expensive to get 10 of these
Armored Spider Man--I still say Overhaul and Super Optimus Prime outshoot this figure, but a nice value for 20pts
Doctor Octopus--Crappy power on a 30pt figure
Green Goblin--Crappy power on a 40pt figure, unreliable

To be perfectly honest, I don't see Marvel truly affecting serious tournament play. Their 10pt strikers are not as good as the Jedi Knight and Wicket, and the best 10pt shooters are still the Minicon and S4 Greedo. There are some good 20pt figures like Beast, Ghost Rider, Western Ghost Rider, Armored Spider Man in Marvel, but nothing to really challenge the dominance of 10 Jedi Knights/Wickets.


There are some nice pieces in that list, but nothing really world shattering. Having as many strikers as it does I would say makes the Marvel set powerful more than any qualities of the figures. The weakness of the Transformers line has to do with the lack of strikers more than anything else.

[haldu2]

Well they are a destructive group to be sure, but not unbeatable, remember the universes are made to mix. They are distincly weakened by the number of fractions. Plus is Hasbro wasn't getting better since SW1 I might stop altogether. When SW5 TF2 come out I think we will see that they are very similar in strength to M1.

[Yaggleberry Finn]

Each universe has some strong 30 and 40 point figures, but I think Star Wars easily takes the cake in that category (S1/S4 Vader and S2 Obi-Wan alone are enough, not to mention General Grievous).

What is really game-breaking is powerful 10 and 20 point figures. I think Star Wars is still tops here as well, but Marvel (after only one series) has definitely closed the gap. I'll reserve my judgment for M-01 Spider-Man, but I expect him to be the best 10 point Striker to date. I've got a good team of Elektra/Daredevil and it's an outstanding combination. Once I get other 20 pointers such as Beast, Spidey and Wolverine, I'll be able to make a better comparison.

So no, I don't think Marvel is overpowerful. But I do think they're a lot more powerful than the Transformers, and they're not too far behind Star Wars. Thecasualoblivion was right about Transformers - their biggest weakness is simply a lack of Strikers. I really hope that is remedied in the next wave, because the Autobots already have some great Launchers.

[grizz]

yaggleberryfinn said:

Each universe has some strong 30 and 40 point figures, but I think Star Wars easily takes the cake in that category (S1/S4 Vader and S2 Obi-Wan alone are enough, not to mention General Grievous).

What is really game-breaking is powerful 10 and 20 point figures. I think Star Wars is still tops here as well, but Marvel (after only one series) has definitely closed the gap. I'll reserve my judgment for M-01 Spider-Man, but I expect him to be the best 10 point Striker to date. I've got a good team of Elektra/Daredevil and it's an outstanding combination. Once I get other 20 pointers such as Beast, Spidey and Wolverine, I'll be able to make a better comparison.

So no, I don't think Marvel is overpowerful. But I do think they're a lot more powerful than the Transformers, and they're not too far behind Star Wars. Thecasualoblivion was right about Transformers - their biggest weakness is simply a lack of Strikers. I really hope that is remedied in the next wave, because the Autobots already have some great Launchers.

I have to say I agree, IMO marvel is much stronger then TF and not far off from star wars. How ever if you were to pick only one series from SW and go up against TF or M they will all be closer then you think.

[thecasualoblivion]

Its all relative really.

Marvel series I probably has more competitive figures than Star Wars series IV or Transformers, and a better percentage than Star Wars series 1-3 of quality figures.

They've got a lot of good strikers, and a lot of powerful 10pt and 20pt figures.

That being said, there are eight factions currently in Marvel, and none of them have the figures to really compete with the strong factions in Star Wars. Even the strongest faction in Marvel, the Marvel Knights, lacks a really strong 30pt-40pt figure, though they have four fantastic figures in the 10pt-20pt range. Transformers has 13 Autbots and 13 Decepticons, and can build stronger teams then Marvel can right now.

That being said they've included a lot of crossover in this game. You can add some cheap strikers to the powerful Transformers launchers fairly easily, with figures like Spider Man, Jedi Knight, Kit Fisto and Ghost Rider to say a few, and make a killer team. Minicons are 10pt tanks, and support S2 Starter Kenobi as well as anything. Rodimus has a 38% chance of recruiting a Destroyer Droid. Anything goes.

Most of my teams are mixed at this point. I never play teams that don't have at least one Transformer, and my favorites are Super Optimus Prime, Battle Ravage, Landmine, Minicon, Overhaul, Skyblast, and to a lesser extent Megatron. I use Ghost Rider, Sabertooth, S4 Starter Han Solo, and S4 Greedo all the time on my Transformers teams. I also use S2 Starter Kenobi, Kit Fisto, Jedi Knights, Darth Vader, Western Ghost Rider, and Grand Moff Tarkin all the time as well.