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Post by redemptionrocks on Aug 28, 2006 12:25:16 GMT -5
"Mace and Yoda were example of rightouss fury, and hense they were never swayed to the darkside." They never won a on screen duel with a sith either
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Post by superflytnt on Aug 28, 2006 18:20:41 GMT -5
You also have to give it to the sith - in all of the movies, only 5 Sith ever really showed up, and they started an intragalactic civil war, reverted a representative democratic republic into a dictatorship, and took over power of an entire galaxy. The Jedi had thousands and they STILL couldn't win until the very end, where there was only 1 Jedi left, and he was only really considered a 'Jedi' at the very end. I'd say the Sith have a far better track record!
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Post by greyelephant on Aug 28, 2006 18:49:15 GMT -5
Well if we were talking about the greatest Sith then I would understand. However we need to know the greatest Jedi and why he is justly stated as so.
My opinion is this. Luke Skywalker after ROTJ became the greatest Jedi ever.
During the movies it is clear that given all of the information that Obi Wan was the most balanced Jedi in the Order.
Why do you ask? Simple, he survived order 66, whooped some "chosen one" butt, and became one with the force.
You are saying at this moment that why not Yoda or Mace.
Mace was indeed an awesome warrior who no matter what anyone tries to say did in fact wear out Palpatine to the point of victory. You need to understand his fighting tactics to understand how he absorbs the dark side and uses it against his opponent.
However he did not for see Anakin turning against him. That was a major flop on his part. He did not survive order 66, he didn't finish Palpatine, and he didn't become one with the force.
Yodawas indeed the Grand Master of the Jedi Order when it came to his wisdom. His fighting could not match that of Palpatine and so wouldn't fair well against Mace either.
Remember this also. Obi Wan was sent to destroy General Grievous because it was thought his fighting style was the best overall of the Jedi available. Obi Wan beat Vader AT HIS PRIME! However Obi Wan would have been beaten by Sidious.
He is my choice due to his balance. Wisdom with Strength in balance.
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Post by superflytnt on Aug 28, 2006 19:03:56 GMT -5
Well if we were talking about the greatest Sith then I would understand. However we need to know the greatest Jedi and why he is justly stated as so. My opinion is this. Luke Skywalker after ROTJ became the greatest Jedi ever. During the movies it is clear that given all of the information that Obi Wan was the most balanced Jedi in the Order. Why do you ask? Simple, he survived order 66, whooped some "chosen one" butt, and became one with the force. You are saying at this moment that why not Yoda or Mace. Mace was indeed an awesome warrior who no matter what anyone tries to say did in fact wear out Palpatine to the point of victory. You need to understand his fighting tactics to understand how he absorbs the dark side and uses it against his opponent. However he did not for see Anakin turning against him. That was a major flop on his part. He did not survive order 66, he didn't finish Palpatine, and he didn't become one with the force. Yodawas indeed the Grand Master of the Jedi Order when it came to his wisdom. His fighting could not match that of Palpatine and so wouldn't fair well against Mace either. Remember this also. Obi Wan was sent to destroy General Grievous because it was thought his fighting style was the best overall of the Jedi available. Obi Wan beat Vader AT HIS PRIME! However Obi Wan would have been beaten by Sidious. He is my choice due to his balance. Wisdom with Strength in balance. FINALLY! Someone who knows the deal (and agrees with me!)...Luke IS the baddest ever.
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Post by greyelephant on Aug 28, 2006 19:14:26 GMT -5
Yes I agree Luke became the greatest Jedi ever.
However during the movies Obi Wan was a clear choice due to my statements above that I really don't want to repeat over and over and over because that would be redundant and wow I just realized that this is just becoming one giant run on sentence isn't it?
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Post by grievous on Aug 28, 2006 19:42:06 GMT -5
WOOHOO! Greyelephant joins me in choosing Obi-Wan as the greatest Jedi according to the movies! I do agree that Luke Skywalker is pretty awesome in the Expanded Universe but Obi kicks serious butt in the movies.
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Post by superflytnt on Aug 28, 2006 19:49:58 GMT -5
Well, ROTJ ~is~ a movie, and he did defeat the entire sith empire pretty much singlehandedly, so I still say that irrespective of the Expanded Universe he is the Baddest Jedi Ever.
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Post by grievous on Aug 29, 2006 6:51:06 GMT -5
Well, ROTJ ~is~ a movie, and he did defeat the entire sith empire pretty much singlehandedly, so I still say that irrespective of the Expanded Universe he is the Baddest Jedi Ever. I disagree completely. Vader and Palpatine killed each other. All Luke did was help turn Vader back to the Light Side.
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Post by superflytnt on Aug 29, 2006 8:36:35 GMT -5
I disagree - rewatch the movies. Luke BEAT vader in a saber duel, cut off his saber hand, and then DUE to his exquisite Jedi morals dropped his saber and CHOSE not to kill him, knowing that this act of compassion would bring Anakin back to the Light. Had he his saber, odds are that he would've killed Palpatine too - I mean Vader took the zapping, picked the guy up over his head, and tossed him like cookies. Why couldn't Luke have beat the old geez?
Luke WAS the best Jedi ever. (echo) ever....ever.....ever....
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grizz
30 Point Warrior
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Posts: 433
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Post by grizz on Aug 29, 2006 12:20:29 GMT -5
Well, ROTJ ~is~ a movie, and he did defeat the entire sith empire pretty much singlehandedly, so I still say that irrespective of the Expanded Universe he is the Baddest Jedi Ever. I disagree completely. Vader and Palpatine killed each other. All Luke did was help turn Vader back to the Light Side. I have to agree with grievous on this one. What kind of a jedi would through down is weapon. It was once said that "that weapon is your life try not to loose it" He could have not killed vader and kept his weapon to kill palpatine and or defend him self but Anakin had to save his skin. Now why Anakin was the baddest jedi ever. It was once said that he could rival yoda as a swords man, he was a better pilot then obi-won, he had to save obi-won 9 or 10 times, he single handedly took out dooku while obi-won got his butt beat twice by him,he was the one that found out palpatine was the sith lord, and last but not least Anakin was responsible for taking out the sith and bringing balance back by killing palpatine, something mace windu and yoda could not do them self.
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Post by superflytnt on Aug 29, 2006 13:41:04 GMT -5
I disagree completely. Vader and Palpatine killed each other. All Luke did was help turn Vader back to the Light Side. I have to agree with grievous on this one. What kind of a jedi would through down is weapon. It was once said that "that weapon is your life try not to loose it" He could have not killed vader and kept his weapon to kill palpatine and or defend him self but Anakin had to save his skin. Now why Anakin was the baddest jedi ever. It was once said that he could rival yoda as a swords man, he was a better pilot then obi-won, he had to save obi-won 9 or 10 times, he single handedly took out dooku while obi-won got his butt beat twice by him,he was the one that found out palpatine was the sith lord, and last but not least Anakin was responsible for taking out the sith and bringing balance back by killing palpatine, something mace windu and yoda could not do them self. Here's where you went wrong in your analysis ;D Luke threw down his saber, which might otherwise have been a very poor decision. I agree there, except that it was, in my opinion, a risk he was willing to take as his act of compassion was what made Vader realize that 'love conquers all' yada yada yada. The fact he had the cojones to do that, despite his odds of survival, is another mark that his Jedi mastery and courage are better than all before him. Only Obi Wan made a similar sacrifice, and in my opinion he did it as he knew that he couldn't defeat Vader again. It could be argued that he did it to save Luke from the stormtroopers, but if he's a bad as you think, why didn't he use force-push to toss the stormtroopers while defeating vader, or kill vader and THEN move onto the troopers? About Anakin's ability as a pilot, and what you said about how Anakin was a beast; this is true, but when it was said about how bad-ass he is, LUKE WASN'T BORN YET. It's like saying Babe Ruth is the best ever, before Bonds and others were born. At the time it may have been true, but things change. Last time I checked, Anakin IS Vader, and Luke beat Vader in the final battle. Perhaps if Obi Wan would've not fought Anakin in the first place on Mustafar, he wouldn't have turned, and the prphecy would've been fulfilled. Who's to say. Obi Wan let his emotions betray him, and he gave up negotiation to fight Anakin. As for his piloting skills, I believe it was Luke, that against all odds, with his attack wing in ruins, destroyed the single greatest weapon ever conceived with an expertly placed shot that no-one else would have made. AND he did it blind, using only the force. Anakin would've been DOA if it wasn't R2 zapping off the little bots on his hull in Ep. 3. Further, he killed the Droid Control Ship merely by ACCIDENT in Ep. 1. He also got very lucky on the Podrace track, but granted he is an expert engineer. Luke, however, was well renowned as a starpilot by his peers from a very young age (see Beggar's Canyon remarks). Hmmmm?
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Post by malform on Aug 29, 2006 13:55:50 GMT -5
Here's where you went wrong in your analysis ;D Luke threw down his saber, which might otherwise have been a very poor decision. I agree there, except that it was, in my opinion, a risk he was willing to take as his act of compassion was what made Vader realize that 'love conquers all' yada yada yada. The fact he had the cojones to do that, despite his odds of survival, is another mark that his Jedi mastery and courage are better than all before him. Only Obi Wan made a similar sacrifice, and in my opinion he did it as he knew that he couldn't defeat Vader again. It could be argued that he did it to save Luke from the stormtroopers, but if he's a bad as you think, why didn't he use force-push to toss the stormtroopers while defeating vader, or kill vader and THEN move onto the troopers? About Anakin's ability as a pilot, and what you said about how Anakin was a beast; this is true, but when it was said about how bad-ass he is, LUKE WASN'T BORN YET. It's like saying Babe Ruth is the best ever, before Bonds and others were born. At the time it may have been true, but things change. Last time I checked, Anakin IS Vader, and Luke beat Vader in the final battle. Perhaps if Obi Wan would've not fought Anakin in the first place on Mustafar, he wouldn't have turned, and the prphecy would've been fulfilled. Who's to say. Obi Wan let his emotions betray him, and he gave up negotiation to fight Anakin. As for his piloting skills, I believe it was Luke, that against all odds, with his attack wing in ruins, destroyed the single greatest weapon ever conceived with an expertly placed shot that no-one else would have made. AND he did it blind, using only the force. Anakin would've been DOA if it wasn't R2 zapping off the little bots on his hull in Ep. 3. Further, he killed the Droid Control Ship merely by ACCIDENT in Ep. 1. He also got very lucky on the Podrace track, but granted he is an expert engineer. Luke, however, was well renowned as a starpilot by his peers from a very young age (see Beggar's Canyon remarks). Hmmmm? Hmmmm indeed... Superfly sounds like a huge Luke fan. I have to agree with grievous on this one. What kind of a jedi would through down is weapon. It was once said that "that weapon is your life try not to loose it" He could have not killed vader and kept his weapon to kill palpatine and or defend him self but Anakin had to save his skin. Now why Anakin was the baddest jedi ever. It was once said that he could rival yoda as a swords man, he was a better pilot then obi-won, he had to save obi-won 9 or 10 times, he single handedly took out dooku while obi-won got his butt beat twice by him,he was the one that found out palpatine was the sith lord, and last but not least Anakin was responsible for taking out the sith and bringing balance back by killing palpatine, something mace windu and yoda could not do them self. A couple of things that bug me here... He only found out who Palpatine was because Palpatine wanted him to know. And while he did get rid of the sith in the end, he basically had to sell his soul and become the biggest tyrant in the universe to get to the point to where he could. He basically was a space Saddam, and that huge character flaw in my mind would keep him from being anywhere near the "greatest" jedi.
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Post by superflytnt on Aug 29, 2006 14:28:12 GMT -5
Personally, my FAVORITE is Obi Wan, due to his wisdom, chivalry, and dry british humor. I think Luke (in the movies) is a creepy looking little dude you might find on a Sex Offenders list who whined way too much throughout the movies. BUT, in the context of the conversation, he did singlehandedly defeat the Sith, bring balance to the Force, and restore the Republic. Nice work for a dirt farmer from some backwater dustball! He is the best!
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Post by greyelephant on Aug 29, 2006 19:07:57 GMT -5
Luke did do some serious things in ROTJ. However you must remember that he did not kill Sidious. Vader killed Sidious. Luke would not have stood a chance against Sidious with a lightsaber. Sidious controlled the entire Empire with the Dark Side of the force.
One thing you are missing is the "between the lines" that you would get if you read the books.
Who told Luke he had to confront Vader? Who gave Luke guidance through EP 4,5?
Luke was still missing important training that could have made him the best if the Jedi Temple still existed or if Yoda could have done more.
Now if you do examine the Expanded Universe you will see Luke does become the greatest. Obi Wan was the greatest through the movies.
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Post by redemptionrocks on Aug 29, 2006 19:58:58 GMT -5
The funniest thing here is that luke I have to say was one of the angriest jedi (barring vader/outcasts/sith) While in the movies I mean Hes mad He cant get off tatoine, Hes mad at yoda, hes made at vader for the sister comment... I mean as stated my big E this kid was filled with anger against himself and others which If he did not have the robotic hand (in ep 6) i'm pretty sure he woulda killed vader (only when realizing that both him and his dad had the same problem aka handless did he have mercy on him) truely as close to a sith as you can get without going darkside on anger. Now Obiwan (not-prequil) was about as manipulative as the emporer and might even rival for second greatest liar in the series second only to palpy himself. Being obviously jedi are taught not to lie (or seems to be) the two top ranked jedi...as "badest" happen to have the most sith like qualities...
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