Attacktix MASS? What is it.

[Joe Manzo]

Well, you will need EXCEL to run it, but it is a program where you rate all the Weapons/Attacks of figures on a scale of 1-4 in power and then the Special Abilities on the same scale 1-4.

This will tell you the weighted value of your Attacktix based on its speed, attack, defense, power, weapon, support level, plus all conditions and multipliers. Here is the full story:

What's your Attacktix MASS?

What is MASS? It's the Manzo Attacktix Scaling System. Much like the complex QB Rating system, this is a detailed system that evaluates each figure not only on ATTACK, SPEED and DEFENSE (Base Size) but also on its support features. Each figure has an Attacktix Class and a Star Wars Class, and these are called upon by powers. So a figure like a common Battle Droid will be more valuable that Padme. Also, every Special Ability modification and condition is noted and taken into account.

The most important part of MASS is that YOU can customize the balance of the scale. You rate the Attack and Special Power Values, and the worksheet will update the MASS for you.

I find more value in powers that ADD a figure for you, or SUBTRACT a figure from your opponent, as a guaranteed removal or addition of a figure is better than the chance to kill! But you can determine what's more important to you.

This is Version 1.0. I need to update the Conditions required to activate Special Powers in Series 2 and then apply that to support units. This version is still an excellent reference for weighing your figures.

www.committee.cc/Attacktix_MASS.xls

GET IT NOW!

[redemptionrocks]

oo ty joe!

[YodaBreaker]

Sweet! Are you planning on publishing the formula you use to do your computations, or is OpenOffice just obscuring what should be clear in Excel?

[Joe Manzo]

beevomit said:

Sweet! Are you planning on publishing the formula you use to do your computations, or is OpenOffice just obscuring what should be clear in Excel?

The formula is hidden as of right now. After I go through my Tix tonight and gather all the conditional data for Series 2 Abilities then I will retest it.

THEN I'll consider releasing my formula

Also, If I didn't make it clear enough. YOU can change the RATING of the Attack and Special Powers.

Just go to the Yellow and Blue boxes in the top-right of the worksheet and change the numbers around. 1-4 is the suggested value limits. You can go over, but it won't like it.

[redemptionrocks]

notice none of the attacks are 3 and below...none of 4...also whats up with the theme thingy? and is MAS thier over all score?

[Joe Manzo]

redemptionrocks said:

notice none of the attacks are 3 and below...none of 4...also whats up with the theme thingy? and is MAS thier over all score?

Not sure what you mean? I only rate my guys 1-3... but I give you the option of 4. I don't think a double is any more valuable... but I haven't read a tutorial yet

MASS is their OVERALL weighted value. It's a number that helps ME determine value. It may not mean anything to everyone.

The Theme Thingy was GOING to bump up the value of figures... but instead I just made it change color so they are easy to find.

You can also use the NEAT filter/sort buttons at the top of the columns!

ENJOY, Post or PM with questions

[Joe Manzo]

NOTE: Boba and Jango have heavy missiles because I am a dope. Also Kicking Kenobi's Weapon (Kick) is not an option.

These will be corrected in Version 1.1

Please PM me with any other problems you find!

Thanks

[darthinsidious]

It would be great to see the formulas you used. Before you posted this MASS system, I was already working on my own Excel based rating system. The problem I am running into is that it is difficult to find a way to weight the different types of capabilities that isn't arbitrary or based upon facile assumptions.

Each figure has four basic characteristics:

Attack (based upon weapon type)
Defense (based upon molding of figure and base size)
Speed
Special Ability

The main problem is in determing how much weight each of these factors contributes to the overall value of a figure. For instance, how can we objectively measure the amount of value that 6 additional tix of speed add to the value of a figure versus the value that a Large Missle adds over a Small Missle?

A second fundamental problem is in figuring out the interaction effects between the factors. For instance, speed contributes both to the offensive and defensive abilities of a player. Each tick of movement allows an attacking figure to get closer to its target, or to escape from the range of an attacking figure. So it would seem that a valid rating system should show these synergistic effects. A fast, powerful striker, such as Armored Vader is should be rated higher than the sum of his attack and speed values.

Similarly, how can striker weapons be evaluated against shooter weapons? It is easy to evalute the effectiveness of each type of weapon at point blank range, but how much importance should be assigned to the RANGE of a weapon? Since strikers have to be at point blank range to attack, this clearly indicates an advantage for shooter weapons; but the value of a shooter weapon decreases for every tick outside of point blank range, and different shooter weapons have different ranges.

So, it seems like there is a great deal of thought that could be put into justifying the logic behind these ranking systems.

[Lord Gravesmythe]

I think you're overcomplicating matters, darth. I wrote a QBASIC program and linked to it a day or so before Joe posted his MASS. Since I don't have Excel on my comp, I can't speak to his program.

But, in considering the variables you specify while writing my program, this is how I saw it:

Base size (defense) is a constant: 5 cm is better than 4.5 cm is better than 4 cm.

Speed (tix) is a constant: 14 is better than 12 is better than 10 is better than 8 is better than 6 is better than 4. It doesn't matter if you use the Speed for offense of defense (that's more of a strategy, anyway).

Weapon size is a constant: A large missile is better than a small missile. Because the official board is 30" x 30" (and only 26" between starting lines), a 12 tix figure (a striker) can cover the board in two turns---and reach the center of the battlefield in one. This pretty much negates the shooter advantage early on. The only time shooters have a clear advantage is for the player who gets to go first. That player can shoot figures that are still on the opposing starting line and knock them out of bounds. Other than that, there's really no clear advantage between strikers and shooters (as far as range of attack goes).

Even the probability that a special power will activate is a numerical value that can be constantly compared. 18/26 is better than 13/26 is better than 8/26 is better than 4/26 is better than 2/26.

The only thing that is variable (in that it is not a constant numerical comparison) is the special power itself. In order to quantify a non-numeric variable, you have to be subjective. Here, I personally take my cues from chess, specifically board position and piece value. I also keep in mind that this game is about "the last figure standing wins." So a special power that takes away an opponent's attack, keeps a figure in play, and maintains board position (Recover) is more valuable than, say, a special power that requires a certain condition be met to bring in a figure at the starting line (Rally) or that brings in a (frequently) weaker figure than the one that was defeated (Recruit) and puts it on the starting line.

In short, the special powers that takes something valuable from your opponent (an attack or figure) while keeping your battle squad's force and or number as stable as possible are the best.

You can see my entire breakdown of special powers here under the Articles link.

Since almost all figures (except the three *effects* figures) has a base, speed, weapon/attack, special power ratio, and special power. Trying to compare the larger weapon of one to the speed and base size of another is really comparing apples to oranges. Compare the weapon of one to the weapon of the other, the base of one to the base of the other, and so forth.

[darthinsidious]

Yeah, I agree that each of the characteristics of a figure (attack, defense, speed, special ability) can be rated individually, but ultimately most rating systems want to provide an overall value for a figure. In Joe's system, this is MASS.

In order to come up with an overall value, it seems like you would have to weight each of the characteristics in some way. In other words, suppose that each characteristic was rated on a scale of 1-10, and the total value of a figure was just the sum of these ratings. So the best possible figure would be one with a value of 40 (10+10+10+10). I don't think anyone is taking this approach, because clearly some characteristics are more important than others. For instance, there is no way that a figure's base size is as important as his weapon. Did you figure out a way to assign weights to each characterisic, or did you take a different approach?

Regarding the shooter vs. striker question, I think your point about the size of the board is good one. If, on average, it takes a striker two moves to reach his target at the starting position, then this would give shooters a one shot advantage. The value of this advantage would be the percent effectiveness of a shot at a target that is one move away. Suppose that a Large Missle is, on average, 60% effective from one move away, and is 80% effective at point blank. Suppose also that a Lightsaber is 95% effective at point blank. Then the attack value of a Lightsaber is 95 and the attack value of a Large Missle is 60+80 = 140. These values could then be scaled down to a 10 point scale (where Grievous's gun, for instance, would represent 10 points).

However, this model is not perfect for several reasons. Once a striker has reached his target, he is likely to be in range of several other targets, and so will be able to keep smacking opponents down at the 95% success rate. One the other hand, by being close to his targets, he is also very likely to be killed by those figures on his opponent's turn (especially if he fails to kill the figure he is attacking). In contrast a shooter with a Large Missle can stay at his starting position and still pick off opponents from across the board (although with a fairly low percentage of success), while still maintaining maximum defensive position.

[redemptionrocks]

no matter what you do there will be no real perfect rating system because of bias and playing styles....

[darthinsidious]

Lord Gravesmythe, I checked out the source code for your QBASIC program. It is pretty flexible in that you allowed for a way to value non combat figures like R2-D2 and figures with more than one attack per turn (such as Destroyer Droid and AT-RT).

It looks like you are weighting Base Size and Speed slightly higher than the other characteristics, as these characteristics can have a maximum value of 12, while the other characteristics max out at 10. But for the most part this rating system is one that calculates a figure's total value by summing up the values of the individual characteristics, thus allowing every characteristic to contribute equally to the figure's total value.

[Lord Gravesmythe]

It looks like you are weighting Base Size and Speed slightly higher than the other characteristics, as these characteristics can have a maximum value of 12

This was only to include certain figures without devaluing the majority of good figures. For instance Darth Vader (S1) moves 14. So instead of valuing a 12 tix figure as an 8 or 9, I moved Darth up to 12 and left the 12 tix at a rating of 10...I think.

Same goes for the bases. The megas, with larger than normal bases, go to 12 while the "large" base normal figures (5 cm) still get a rating of 10. The mega base rating is counteracted by the squad-building cost (being over 40, the cost rating takes a big hit).

I did it that way so I could include the special figures without penalizing the normal "good" figures.

Also, if you look at the formula, I divide by one less than the variables. This way, a Medic Driod isn't punished by not having an attack while a Clone Trooper isn't punished by not having an effect.

I'm glad you posted your second response before I read your first one. I would have been confused! (Since what you suggest is pretty much what I tried to do with my program.)

JOE:

Also Kicking Kenobi's Weapon (Kick) is not an option.

I don't have a Kickin' K and I can't run your program, so forgive me if this is a stupid question. But, can't you classify OWK's kick as a "striker" just as Chewie or Tarf's swats are really striker attacks? Or is OWK's attack different than on a rotational axis?

[redemptionrocks]

With obi u can literaly use him as a launcher....

[Lord Gravesmythe]

Ah. As in upward swing?