haldu2
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Post by haldu2 on Dec 7, 2007 19:11:23 GMT -5
Ok guys I need your help. I want to know who you think is better the spider or the bat. don't get into virtual yelling matches or anything just tell it like it is based on what they've done and their stats and their motivation. This is a debate w/ a friend of mine so I want something solid. Thanks
Edit: Sorry about being unclear. I'm not really asking about who would win if they fought each other. I want to know who's the better hero, who's the better fighter is a factor in that but that's not the actual question.
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Megazarak
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Post by Megazarak on Dec 7, 2007 20:03:39 GMT -5
Honestly, it really depends. If Batman knew he was going to be in a fight with Spider Man, he would find a way to beat him, use it, beat Spider Man and emerge victorious. Then again, if neither of them had any time to prepare, I'd have to go with Spider Man because he has super strength, is faster and has natural super powers but Batman only has his limited amount of gear to use. Although, I'm sure that Batman could easily hold his own against Spider Man because of his amazing martial arts skills, but I don't think that it'd be enough to win against Spider Man. So, I'm not going to vote because it really depends in the situation they're in, where it takes place and the amount of gear each has and so on.
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Post by grievous on Dec 7, 2007 21:56:28 GMT -5
Batman. Any way you cut it.
If Batman has time to prepare, he'll wear a Teflon armor Bat-Suit so the webbing can't stick, he'll carry some sort of oil to throw on a building to keep Spidey from wall-crawling, and he'd simply kick Spidey's butt.
If Batman did not have time to prepare, all he has to do is use a Batarang. Spidey webs him, slice the web apart. Spidey runs away, stick him in the back. Spidey swings away, cut the web with a well-aimed throw. Batman wins.
Batman basically wins at everything. There is NOTHING that can beat Batman if he's prepared and very few things that can beat him if he's unprepared. Batman is just that awesome.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2007 0:13:54 GMT -5
Batman basically wins at everything. "Where does he get those wonderful toys?!"...But without those "toys", the man is just that... a man. You can't ignore Spiderman's strength, agility, and spider-sense. In an un-prepared fight, I think Batman would lose. Maybe even in a prepared fight. I don't see why this is a big question. Now, what would truly be a question for the ages... VSYeah, I know, the Man-Bat wasn't Bruce Wayne, but Spiderman already finished him off.
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Post by grievous on Dec 8, 2007 8:46:57 GMT -5
Okay, Batman has a chance at losing an unprepared fight, I'll give you that. But there is no way in heck Batman will EVER lose one where he's prepared. That's his super power, hyper-preparedness combined with being able to use it. Whenever Batman wants to beat someone, he uses his satellite systems to scope the target for months in advance in order to learn their strengths and weaknesses, prepares specially designed gadgets meant solely to take down said target, and then he goes and kicks them across the playground. That is why Batman always wins when he's prepared unless something crazy like an attack by Galactus happens in the middle of the fight or if the writers of the the comic book/movie/whatever need him to lose for the sake of the plot but I'll presume the fight is fair. Batman wins as long as he gets to use his greatest strengths: his intellects, his research, and his inventiveness. Also, the Bat wins against the Spider in the critter throwdown. All that Man-Bat has to do is get to an area without any tall areas to swing from and then he can just play hit and run. The bat always, always, always beats the spider in everything. Just look in nature! The bat eats the spider. Same basic concept .
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Post by greyelephant on Dec 8, 2007 9:11:28 GMT -5
Just look in nature! The bat eats the spider. Same basic concept . |
Not too many spiders are the size of a bat. Plus is they were, well, that would change nature wouldn't it?
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haldu2
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Post by haldu2 on Dec 8, 2007 11:19:48 GMT -5
I'm not sure that anybody has read my edit. Anyways according to about.com's top ten superheros Spiderman is #2 and Batman is #3. The official stats for Spidey from marvel Universe are(out of 7) Intelligence:5 Strength:5 Speed:6 Durability: 4 Energy Projection: 2 Fighting Skills: 4 I could not find a break down like this for Batman so if anyone else can it would be helpful. The only place I can really see him being higher is intelligence and even there I'm not sure.
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Post by Turkish Van Cat on Dec 8, 2007 20:23:20 GMT -5
Anything that you'd be able to find on Batman would probably be on a different scale than that of Spiderman since Spidey is Marvel and Batman is DC. As for me, I used to love to watch the original batman and loved it, though I haven't seen it on TVLand for ages.... He and Robin could deal some serious "WHAM"s, "PAZOW!"s and "BIFF!"s to Spidey for sure ;D.
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Post by grievous on Dec 8, 2007 22:30:17 GMT -5
I'm not sure that anybody has read my edit. Anyways according to about.com's top ten superheros Spiderman is #2 and Batman is #3. The official stats for Spidey from marvel Universe are(out of 7) Intelligence:5 Strength:5 Speed:6 Durability: 4 Energy Projection: 2 Fighting Skills: 4 I could not find a break down like this for Batman so if anyone else can it would be helpful. The only place I can really see him being higher is intelligence and even there I'm not sure. First, don't ever take Batman's intelligence in vein! Bats is WAY smarter than Spider-Man. Spider-Man doesn't have a network of satellites or folders on how to defeat every single superhero on Earth. Bat beats Spidey in brainpower any day of the week. With that said, here's my opinion on Batman's abilities with the 1-7 scale with 1 being ordinary human, 3 being peak normal human, and 7 being all powerful: Intelligence: 6 (I'd give him a 7 but I believe that's "omniscient" level according to Marvel so I'll leave it at 6 to be fair ) Strength: 3 (The strongest any ordinary human can be) Speed: 3 (The fastest any ordinary human can be) Durability: 3 (The most durable any... you get the idea ) Energy Projection: 2 (Uh... I guess this means ranged attacks? If so, Batarang FTW) Fighting Skills: 6 (He trained under the best fighters on the Earth and some off of it. He knows every fighting style known to man and some to non-man. Easily a 6.) Now, as to the original bit on who the better hero is, Batman wins. He's far smarter than Spider-Man ever will be and is cooler because he is what any human could do given the time and money. Anyone could be Batman given the right amount of determination whereas no one could be Spider-Man unless they got lucky. Batman > Spider-Man. This also reminds me of a Youtube video... "Hi, I'm a Marvel" "And I'm a DC" "I'm Batman"And Part 2
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haldu2
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Post by haldu2 on Dec 9, 2007 0:47:35 GMT -5
Here's my prob w/ that grievous: you a fan so we'll have to use the fan ratings of spider man which come out as Intelligence:7 Strength: 6 Speed:6 Durability:6 Energy Projection:5 Fighting skills 6 In these regard he nails batman all over the place. Let's not forget that Syndrome was a normal guy w/ great innovative intelligence and resources. that doesn't make a person good or anything, I know Batman is a crime fighter, but Peter was given great power and has had to(very humanly I might add) face the responsibility that came w/ that. And I get a little tired of people saying batman is the best because anyone could be him, if anyone could be batman how come now one is. Most of his gadgets have not actually been invented, determination will not help there nor will it make you genius. And if batman is so real how come he fights in a fictional city while Spidey works in the real life America. my point is people always say that batman is good because he could be real, but actually he's just as made up as any of the geneticly altered freaks
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Post by grievous on Dec 9, 2007 8:30:44 GMT -5
See, now you're being biased . I used to have a massive amount of Marvel/DC trading cards that explained the various power levels. Sevens are God abilities (infinite knowledge, power, etc.) while sixs are near-God abilities (See: average Hulk level strength). There is no way that Spidey has God intelligence and Hulk strength. I could have done the same thing with Batman's stats but I didn't. This is how I'd rate Spider-Man: Intelligence: 5 (He's smart, yes, but he's not a super-genius. He figured out webshooters but what else has he done since then other than make witty remarks and kill his girlfriend by forgetting basic physics?) Strength: 5 (Not as strong as Hulk but much stronger than the average human) Speed: 4 (He doesn't have any sort of super-speed but he does move faster than the average human) Durability: 5 (Spidey does NOT go down easily) Energy Projection: 3 (He can shoot webs, big deal) Fighting skills: 4 (He knows one fighting style and that's jump/swing around and web people. It's a good fighting style/skill but it certainly isn't god-like) In the end, I see Spidey as an all-around fighter (jack of all trades, master of none) while Batman relies on solely his intelligence. There's nothing wrong with being an all-arounder but there is no way Spidey has almost straight 6s with Omniscient intelligence. Sorry, there is just no way. Second, the reason they say Batman is the best because anyone could be him is because it's true assuming perfect circumstances. Give some guy a near infinite amount of money, give him the natural intelligence to invent, give him Bruce Wayne's exact personality, and then kill his parents when he's a child and see what happens. Batman could exist. The situation would have to be perfect but it could happen whereas Spider-Man can't exist because radioactive spider bites don't actually give out powers. The whole "he's just as made up" is a bad argument because no one actually thinks Batman is going to pop up some day, he simply COULD if a series of improbable events occurred. Third, there is another reason the "everyman" bit works. Batman is a human, an ordinary human, fighting with the biggest baddies on the face of the planet and even the universe. Batman has taken down Superman, Brainiac, and other insanely powerful characters have amazing super powers while Batman has none and still goes toe-to-toe with them to the point of kicking them across the battlefield. He doesn't even need a fancy suit like Iron Man or supersoldier serum like Captain America (by the way, that's also why Caps is popular, because he's a human in a superhuman's world relying only on his determination, patriotism, and shield), all he needs is his brain and he'll end up taking down cosmic-level threats. Strip Spider-Man of his powers and you have an ordinary human who'll do the right thing. Strip Batman of his powers and you still have Batman. That is why Batman is awesome.
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Post by webhead817 on Dec 9, 2007 13:35:53 GMT -5
I think Spidey is the better hero, only because...he's had a lifetime of things go wrong for him, and yet, he still remains an everyman of sorts...a regular guy who just so happens to carry the weight of being a great hero around as well. Batman acheives his heroics only through complete dedication...and though his parents have died...(as have spideys)...the rest of his life has been fairly easy EXCEPT for the additional heartahe he has brought upon himself.
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haldu2
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Post by haldu2 on Dec 9, 2007 15:08:04 GMT -5
I'm sorry I didn't clarify this grievous, I am biased, but I have not voted in this poll. The numbers I have presented are not mine they are of the Marvel Universe website for both the official and the fan stats. I have a question, Why isn't Bill Gates batman? He has a nearly infinite amount of money and natural intelligence, and he's a fairly charitable person. The thing is batman is given "superpowers" by the writers even if they don't call them that or state where he got them. Some of the inventions are just plain no more realistic than being bitten by a radioactive spider(by the way we really don't know what this would do). No one has answered why this "real man" has to fight in a fictional world. Why can't he take the pressure of being a real american hero like the Cap and Spidey?
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Post by YodaBreaker on Dec 9, 2007 20:27:50 GMT -5
For those interested, there are explanations of the various Marvel PowerGrid categories. grievous, the problem I have with your assumption that Batman represents "an ordinary human" is that you contradict this plainly by then listing out his fabulous (and statistically abnormal wealth, intellectual prowess, and network of resources that (as haldu2 notes) have a dubious basis in reality. Thus, at best he's already an extraordinary specimen of humanity at best, and an unrealistic writer's fantasy at worst. Not "anyone" could be Batman; it apparently takes a very peculiar combination of genetic and environmental factors to create such a specimen. Also, there are a lot of assumptions about Batman's skills that may not play out in "reality." One is that Batman would have "sufficient" time to prepare for any particular challenge, but time may be of the essence. Another is that the adversary's forms and powers wouldn't change between data gathering, device design, and stratagem implementation (and think of how many ways Spidey's powers have changed over the decades, for one). However, haldu2, I don't view grievous's estimates of Batman's stats as "fan-boy" material, which is basically what those "fan" ratings of the Marvel stats boil down to. A lot of people vote in the vein of "tihs gy ROXXORS MI BOXXORS!" rather than rationally assessing a character's attributes as revealed through the published material. In fact, I'd say that the official Marvel ratings of Spider-Man's capabilities suffer from at least a bit of "fan-boy syndrome." To wit: Does Spidey really show "genius" level Intelligence (as required for a 5 rating), or would he be merely gifted (a 4 rating)? Where does he lift more than 25 tons to warrant a 5 Strength rating (his official description says he can lift up to 20 tons optimally) - shouldn't he be a 4 Strength? Can it be shown that Spider-Man can travel at the speed of light (which is required for a Speed rating of 6), or is he really more of the superhuman subsonic (Speed rating 3 - I don't recall him breaking the sound barrier) or supersonic, given his danger sense (Speed rating 4)? I'll let his danger sense give him a Durability equivalent of 4 (Regeneration), bump him up to a 3 for Energy Projection (Short range, short duration, single energy type sounds like a fair description of his webbing), and stick with a 4 for Fighting Ability (Experienced fighter). Thus, Spider-Man more realistically looks like: Spider-ManIntelligence: 4 Strength: 4 Speed: 4 Durability: 4 Energy Projection: 3 Fighting Skills: 4 MEAN = 3.83, SD = 0.37 Using the same descriptors for Batman, I'd rate him as: BatmanIntelligence: 6 (super-genius) Strength: 3 (peak human) Speed: 2 (normal) Durability: 3 (enhanced - and this is generous) Energy Projection: 1 (he has no ability to discharge energy natively, nor project himself biologically or astrally) Fighting Skills: 6 (master of several forms of combat) MEAN = 3.5, SD = 1.89 Hence, this question suffers from the fundamental problem of being underspecified: best hero for what purpose? Spidey's a more consistent quantity, but Batman's better developed abilities might compensate for some other relative deficiencies in other abilities. Furthermore, post #13 on this thread illustrates the ultimate circularity of any of these sorts of arguments, inasmuch as any writer could conceive of circumstances in which the favored character could win. Another way of putting this is that given these ratings, it'd be easy to construct scenarios for each hero in which certain attributes would have a greater weight than others in determining who's "best." To me, a much more interesting question is this: Is Spider-Man or Batman a more compelling character to you?I think that Spider-Man might have a broader appeal, inasmuch as but for his freakishly given powers, he'd resemble the "everyman on the street," making it easier for the average fan to project himself into the character's psyche and sympathize with Spidey. It may also be more engaging to a reader to project himself into the situations in which Spider-Man often finds himself, as they seem to be more reality-based. Furthermore, his more overtly moral dilemmas and (eventually) virtuous resolution of them may appeal to those looking for a beacon of morality in an increasingly gray moral landscape. It may be hard for an average person to sympathize with the travails of a super-rich super-genius, who was born with advantages most people will never have. However, one might also make an argument for Batman as the more compelling character, inasmuch as having all of these advantages doesn't make for a cushy life, free from pain and privation. It reminds everyone that just because someone has more of something than you (whether that something be brains or material possessions) doesn't mean that person's life is better than yours - how tortured is Batman's existence! His drive and dedication are admirable qualities that one might choose to emulate, rather than sympathize with. However, I'd chalk his existence in a fictional world up to DC's editorial policies, rather than some contrived "inability to hack it in the real world."
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haldu2
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Post by haldu2 on Dec 9, 2007 22:36:37 GMT -5
Thanks YB, that's the kind of posts I was looking for with this poll. I'm not sure I would agree that Batman is 6 in intelligence or a 3(especially w/ out armor) in durability, but I think your ratings are pretty fair over all. The reason I find Spidey to be the more compelling character is the fact that like all of us he's been given certain gifts and has an inner struggle over how to use them. He's very real in a superhuman way.
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