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Post by malform on Sept 10, 2007 12:29:24 GMT -5
Over the weekend I used an MV2-19 Spider-Man (web ball tosser) in a reverse manor that allowed me to take an upper-cut strike right under SM-1 Venom's (slim spitting) chin and KO him. My opponent was very much against using Spider-Man to attack in this way, what are your thoughts?
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Post by grievous on Sept 10, 2007 12:36:28 GMT -5
I'm against it for the simple reason that it is using the attack in a way not originally intended. To put it simply, I see it (as well as uppercutting with downwards smashers like Thing) as being the equivalent of using a figure's gun to flip over a figure like Scorponok is meant to do. At the very least with the Uppercutting Thing, you're using the spring as originally intended but I still don't like it at all. The figures were designed to do a certain attack. Shooters are meant to launch stuff, strikers are meant to swing at the waist to knock figures over, prodders are meant to prod, uppercutters lift figures off their bases, and downwards smashers are supposed to knock figured down with a mighty smash. Doing otherwise with any of these causes a possible problem down the road (If I can strike with my web launch Spidey, why can't I lift with my Han Solo's gun and bullet?) That's just me, though .
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Post by malform on Sept 10, 2007 12:42:25 GMT -5
Yeah... you have a good point, which is basically the same argument made by my opponent, and I ultimately took my attack back and allowed venom to go on as if nothing happened. But I just couldnt kill venom with that stupid web ball... And Spider-man was my last figure!
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Post by webhead817 on Sept 10, 2007 12:52:43 GMT -5
Off the top of my head I would allow this...after all, the defeat of the figure resulted from the attacking action of the Spider-Man figure...which is the general criteria for a successful attack. (After all, we allow you to strike an opponents gun and have that shoot into someone else entirely...)
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Post by sfx5000 on Sept 10, 2007 15:40:13 GMT -5
Off the top of my head I would allow this...after all, the defeat of the figure resulted from the attacking action of the Spider-Man figure...which is the general criteria for a successful attack. (After all, we allow you to strike an opponents gun and have that shoot into someone else entirely...) What what about the point brought up about just using the arms/guns of launcher figures to hurl figures like Scorponok?
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AWOL
40 Point Warrior
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Post by AWOL on Sept 10, 2007 16:53:30 GMT -5
How/Where did you get the MV2 Starter? It's not out yet and I've been looking looking looking for it. I want that so bad, and I understand some people already have it?
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jaws
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Post by jaws on Sept 10, 2007 17:19:29 GMT -5
Copes and I found one at TJ Maxx and split him. But don't anyone tell him that you managed to kill Venom. He's my secret weapon.
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Post by webhead817 on Sept 10, 2007 20:04:02 GMT -5
Off the top of my head I would allow this...after all, the defeat of the figure resulted from the attacking action of the Spider-Man figure...which is the general criteria for a successful attack. (After all, we allow you to strike an opponents gun and have that shoot into someone else entirely...) What what about the point brought up about just using the arms/guns of launcher figures to hurl figures like Scorponok? I'd refer everyone to the Quick Start Guide for the Transformers set...Scorponok is shown to have a Special Attack...there is no indication that anyone with a free moving arm can use the same sort of attack. I'm playing around with this now...I'm having a hard time hooking his hands under anyone, and the web ball gets in the way as well...
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Post by grievous on Sept 10, 2007 20:10:02 GMT -5
But can't the same correlation be made between Uppercut figures and Downward Smash and Tosser figures? After all (to use your wording), there is no indication that anyone with a spring-loaded arm can use the same sort of attack as an Uppercut figure just because it is physically plausible. Seems like a gray area in the rulings.
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phoenixflood
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Post by phoenixflood on Sept 10, 2007 20:29:47 GMT -5
I would have to say that if you can pull the arms down behind his back with the web ball, and then use the web ball to strike, I would consider that an OK attack because you are using the web ball.
If you are just striking the figure with the web that holds the web ball, then that should not count as a legal attack.
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Post by webhead817 on Sept 10, 2007 21:15:22 GMT -5
But can't the same correlation be made between Uppercut figures and Downward Smash and Tosser figures? After all (to use your wording), there is no indication that anyone with a spring-loaded arm can use the same sort of attack as an Uppercut figure just because it is physically plausible. Seems like a gray area in the rulings. I think you are missing my point. Almost all figures have a limb or two that moves, but is not part of their attack in some way...most shooters move at the shoulder for example. However, only Scorponok (among the standard sized figs) is explicitly allowed by the rules to have his shoulder joint physically manipulated to attack figures directly, and only the one shoulder with the "scoop" arm. In virtually every other figure with an attack in the game, you rely only on the spring loaded weapon for the attack itself. Forget the distinction between strikers and launchers and focus on the spring idea for a moment...the spring is causing some part of the figure to move, and the release of the spring energy results in the attack in some way. Separately...I don't know that we've ever ruled that you couldn't use a "hammer fist" character like Thing as an uppercutter instead...the arm can be adjusted to multiple positions...I don't see a reason why one position should be illegal, but the next "click" over would be legal to use...
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Post by YodaBreaker on Sept 10, 2007 21:24:19 GMT -5
I guess the critical question for me is this: was the web ball in Spidey's web at the time the attack happened? If it were, and it was the release of the web ball what knocked Venom over, then I wouldn't have any problem with it. As webhead noted, this is using Spidey's prescribed attack action, just in the opposite direction from which it would normally be expected. If you disallow this sort of attack, you might as well also disallow the use of a launcher whose projectile is touching another figure. If not, well...then Spidey's already attacked, inasmuch as his attack action is the release of the web ball. Furthermore, launchers need to be reloaded at the start of each turn, so I wouldn't view it as licit if one just happened to "forget" to reload Spidey and used an empty web to uppercut. In that case, I agree that it would be like flicking a launcher's arm around to "strike".
Personally, I also have zero problem with converting Thing and Thor into backwards strikers. The fundamental attacking surface is still being used, just in the direction opposite that which would be expected. Just as one can convert downward strikers into uppercutters by rotating their arms around 180 degrees, one can also convert uppercutters like SW S3 Chewbacca into downward strikers by the same 180 degree arm rotation (though why one would choose to do this in anything but friendly play is beyond me). Heck, I've also no problem with figures like SW S1 Chewbacca and SW S3 Obi-Wan Kenobi using a backhand attack that goes "against" the expected pivot direction - yet still uses the self-same waist pivot action to achieve exactly the same effect.
In short, I believe that as long as you're using the same attack pivot to attack as is used in the standard attack action, and the attack is accomplished with the designed attacking surface (projectile or striking surface), the attack is licit, even if the attack occurs from a direction other than might ordinarily be expected.
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Post by malform on Sept 10, 2007 22:12:42 GMT -5
Well, I did not attack with the web ball in place (the stupid web ball wont kill venom anyway). I was playing much like radar at tixcon, and only loading the web ball if I planned on launching it (thinking that the mass of the ball would cause some balance issues).
I just took the web between his hands, bent his arms all the way back (the webbing will just barley go down enough to get under venoms chin), placed it under venoms chin, and release..... Dead venom.
Im really pretty impressed with how divided the opinions seem to be on the topic. I was pretty convinced I was cheating.... It was a desperate ploy by a man with a single figure left on the board.
On a slightly different note, using this web ball spider-man was interesting.... He is the only figure that has a shoulder mounted spring mechanism that will only go back so far. You can pull it back as hard as you like and it never does that stupid click thing and rotate to a different position. In my opinion all uppercut and downward smash figures should work this way.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2007 22:40:27 GMT -5
Separately...I don't know that we've ever ruled that you couldn't use a "hammer fist" character like Thing as an uppercutter instead...the arm can be adjusted to multiple positions...I don't see a reason why one position should be illegal, but the next "click" over would be legal to use... I agree. If I were defeated by someone using such tactics, I might whine a bit, but a loss is a loss. Especially since it was caused by the enemies intended weapon, no matter what direction that weapon had been pointing. Now, whacking your opponent's figures with a launcher's gun is just... silliness.
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Post by grievous on Sept 11, 2007 6:51:31 GMT -5
I think you are missing my point. Almost all figures have a limb or two that moves, but is not part of their attack in some way...most shooters move at the shoulder for example. However, only Scorponok (among the standard sized figs) is explicitly allowed by the rules to have his shoulder joint physically manipulated to attack figures directly, and only the one shoulder with the "scoop" arm. In virtually every other figure with an attack in the game, you rely only on the spring loaded weapon for the attack itself. Forget the distinction between strikers and launchers and focus on the spring idea for a moment...the spring is causing some part of the figure to move, and the release of the spring energy results in the attack in some way. Separately...I don't know that we've ever ruled that you couldn't use a "hammer fist" character like Thing as an uppercutter instead...the arm can be adjusted to multiple positions...I don't see a reason why one position should be illegal, but the next "click" over would be legal to use... Yeah, I see what you're getting at now. I don't like it, especially in this case where a launcher figure is turned into a striker unlike the Uppercut to Downward which at least keeps a figure in it's standard class, but I understand your argument. I'm not a particular fan of it and don't agree with it but I understand and respect where you're coming from and what you are getting at. Personally, I'll be house ruling against it but if it happens at TixCon, I'll take the hit honorably.
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