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Post by malform on Jun 12, 2007 17:50:14 GMT -5
I like the idea of anaken transforming... But it would be called "turn to the dark side" or maybe something that would fit on the base.
I could be a little flexible and say that the transformed figure would only go into backups if you had alloted the correct amount of points... That is a fair trade.
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Post by superflytnt on Jun 12, 2007 17:51:07 GMT -5
Since we're on the subject, I'd LOVE to see a Ghostly Anakin (oldguy) and Ben Kenobi (Old guy).
S6 Ghostly Obi Wan Kenobi 30 Point Leader / Jedi Class Medium Base // NO weapon Effect is "With ObiWan in play, Luke Skywalker may make an additional attack" Special is "Vengeance - Empire" 62%
S6 Old Dead Anakin Skywalker 40 Point Specialist Large Base // Force Blast Effect is "When this figure is in play, no Empire figures may attack" Special power is "Vengeance Remove an opponent's Darth Vader" 77%.
I still think we need to form a 5-person panel (including one Chair) of some older, seasoned players and call it the Rules Committee. We should free conference call and talk things out, and get this settled post-haste.
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Post by grievous on Jun 12, 2007 18:02:19 GMT -5
You know, you're right. That makes perfect sense when stated like that CP analogy. I'm in. I say that Evading figures cannot be harmed, and anyone inadvertantly harmed by their accidental flight should be reset WHERE THEY STAND, not where they started. Sweet! Hoosiers sway someone to the Evade = Null side. High five, greyelephant! Thanks. After you mentioned it, I did look through all my other figures and I believe all of them said "defeated" in their text somewhere. Like I said, I must have just been looking at the wrong figures. Anyways, yeah, now that I see all "defeated" in the Rally area, I agree about 95% with the Knockdown <> Defeat rule. The other 5% is just a margin of error. Finally, I'd say that Transform = Defeated Pile. I wish it was some other way but that is a big jump from original Hasbro rules and violates a lot of the game. I'm all and up for correcting Hasbro stupidity (errata-ing figure names) but completely changing the mechanics of a power? I don't know. I'm a bit hesitant here but I won't vote Yay or Nay since I'm unsure if I'm 100% against the Transform = Back-Ups idea.
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Post by superflytnt on Jun 12, 2007 18:30:36 GMT -5
ROFL. Don't get wood-burnt from riding the fence.
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Post by greyelephant on Jun 12, 2007 19:22:51 GMT -5
Mal, I don't want you to think I am stomping your idea to the ground. I love it personally. However, to put it into an "official" "unofficial" guide book, might be a little of a stretch.
If you had left your back ups open to accommodate a possible, let's say 30 point SOP truck mode figure. I can see this working.
However, I still have to say, I am going to stick with my guns and say it shouldn't go into the rules.
Once again though, I wish to say that I am for it. Just against putting it in the rule book.
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Post by grievous on Jun 12, 2007 19:30:56 GMT -5
Ditto to what greyelephant said. It's a great idea but seems more like a really fun house rule than an officially unofficial rule. That's just me, though. Let the "breaking of legs" and "busting of heads" begin! Hmm... since we need something to discuss other than Transform, how about we clear up the following? Emperor, WTH?We need to clear up whether the Emperor can or can't detach from a targeted figure since Hasbro has given us conflicting rulings. The argument could be made that it is like Mystique, one-way and a possession is a possession. A sort of one-time effect, if you will. The argument can also be made that it is sort of like Emperor going from one apprentice to another in search of the best one. This would treat the Emperor's possession as more of an attack than an effect, allowing one to use it multiple times. I vote for detaching allowed, personally. It lets Emperor become just a tad bit more useful than he already is.
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Post by greyelephant on Jun 12, 2007 20:42:42 GMT -5
Yes, I agree, he should be able to detach from a figure. I feel if you have the ability to possess someone, that should give you the ability to do just the opposite.
Now with Mystique, she is different. She in my opinion is transforming, morphing, or in other words she is not possessing. She is assuming a different form. So I feel she has to stick with that form for the rest of the game.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2007 0:02:22 GMT -5
Transforming back and forth from back-ups is a nifty idea, but as the others said, it's best left as a house rule.
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Post by superflytnt on Jun 13, 2007 6:16:08 GMT -5
Sounds good.
So far we've <mostly> resolved that: 1. Knockdowns are NOT Defeats until after all figures are checked for Recover/Rescue. 2. Luke as ST is not Luke Skywalker, but this will be 'addendumed'. The rest are as written. 3. Transform..nice try Steve. ;D
Still unresolved: 1. Evade? Really never came to a final agreement there I think. 2. Emperor...WTF?
My vote is that the Emperor should be detachable, and when detached needs to be put on the deck nearest the side his feet were facing while attached, with the base touching the recently freed figure. The risk is that he must be detached during the Action phase, hence his movement will be negated, so at the end of the turn after the detach and attacks he will be standing right next to an enemy who will be on the cusp of an attack, provided he was not felled during that same turn.
The real tricky question is kills. I submit to you all that if the Emperor's posessed figure is knocked down that the Emperor shares his fate, irrespective of him landing on his feet. My logic is that while posessing a figure, and sharing that figure's Special, they are as one, and should share the same fate. I don't like the idea that if a Tion Medon is posessed and subsequently killed that if the Emperor breaks loose and lands upright in the fall that he should be allowed to live AND get the Special power Tion provides.
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Post by greyelephant on Jun 13, 2007 6:44:18 GMT -5
If the Emperor falls off during the attack then I say the figure is then under the control of the original member. In other words, no, I don't think that the Emperor should get the special and still be standing if attacked.
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Post by malform on Jun 13, 2007 6:56:15 GMT -5
Bah... I dont really care about the emperor.... If he is detachable or not hes still weak. If it is ruled that he can be detached I would agree that it would be accounted as an attack action. And therefor he would be a huge sitting duck on the opponents next turn... Seems to me that would be enough to keep people from doing such a thing. And the only way transform will ever be resolved is if it is so stated that a transformed figures gets placed in backups.
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Post by grievous on Jun 13, 2007 7:53:17 GMT -5
Yes to Emperor being detachable. Yes to it counting as an attack action. No to him being killed upon falling off a possessed figure even if base lands. No to him gaining the power of another character upon falling off that character.
Logic is this. Emperor only is able to "control" a figure while he is on it. While Emperor is piggie-backed, the figure he is on is yours. Emperor loses control of a figure if he is shot off of him and the figure he was on doesn't fall. Logically, then, one could assume that as soon as the Emperor is off of a figure, the possession ceases (otherwise why would the original controller of a character ever try to shoot off Empie?). If Emperor loses control of a figure upon leaving contact with it, that means that no matter if he fell upright or knocked down, the possessed figure reverts to its original owner's control and the special power goes to the original owner because there is no "power time pause" here since the separation happened during the attack phase and not the power phase. Finally, if Emperor lands on his feet then he is alive. That is a very important rule that shouldn't be messed with.
So, in conclusion, my votes so far: 1. Are knockdowns defeats? No 2. Are power to be played as written? Yes a. L/a/S and H/a/S count as Luke Skywalker and Han Solo, respectively b. All "vehicle mode" figures COUNT as having "vehicle mode" in their name for the sake of the Transform power. 3. Does Transform send figures into the backups? Sadly, no 4. What does Evade entail? All attacks on an Evaded figure are considered null. The Evaded figure and all figures affected by the Evaded figure are reset. 5. Can the Emperor detach from his target? Yes
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Post by malform on Jun 13, 2007 8:40:11 GMT -5
You guys are drunk... You want to rule that "luke as stormtrooper" and "luke skywalker" are interchangeable, but something as simple as putting a transformed figure into backups is just too much for ya? "luke/han as stormtrooper" should not be interchangeable with "luke skywalker" or "han solo". BUT transformers should be able to transform back and forth.... Thats what they do isnt it? Im gonna pull a Martin Luther, and start my own rule book
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Post by grievous on Jun 13, 2007 8:51:03 GMT -5
Well, there is a very large difference between changing a name and changing a fundamental core aspect to a game.
With the L/a/S, H/a/S, and the "Vehicle mode" rulings, you are merely changing the name of a figure or what figure is referenced in a power to what it should have been all along. There are no differences between Luke Skywalker wearing a hat or wearing his standard outfit and there are no differences between what character Super Optimus Prime is whether he is a robot or a vehicle.
Changing Transform requires you to change a power, change a fundamental rule of the game (Defeated go to Defeated Pile), and brings up some questions about back-ups (Is there a 1/2 limit just to kick things off and then there aren't any limits? Can you only add 1/2 period and not add any more afterwards? Can figures move freely into the back-ups pile? ). I like the Transform rule but it changes quite a few core elements of the game. I don't think I'm willing to go that far.
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Post by malform on Jun 13, 2007 8:57:29 GMT -5
Well, there is a very large difference between changing a name and changing a fundamental core aspect to a game. With the L/a/S, H/a/S, and the "Vehicle mode" rulings, you are merely changing the name of a figure or what figure is referenced in a power to what it should have been all along. There are no differences between Luke Skywalker wearing a hat or wearing his standard outfit and there are no differences between what character Super Optimus Prime is whether he is a robot or a vehicle. Changing Transform requires you to change a power, change a fundamental rule of the game (Defeated go to Defeated Pile), and brings up some questions about back-ups (Is there a 1/2 limit just to kick things off and then there aren't any limits? Can you only add 1/2 period and not add any more afterwards? Can figures move freely into the back-ups pile? ). I like the Transform rule but it changes quite a few core elements of the game. I don't think I'm willing to go that far. You arent changing anything by allowing a transformed figure to go into backups... Except that you are allowing them to go to backups. This whole idea that you offsetting balance by all of the sudden having 10 more points in your backups than you should is ridiculous. The rules state that you "start" a game with 100 points and 50 points backups... It never states you maintain that amount. But renaming figures at your leisure seems to me to be a completely different and even more radical move. They named them differently for a reason, and I believe that reason is to keep people from bringing "as stormtroopers" back again and again. Not allowing back and forth transforms is a major oversight, and one of the biggest flaws in game play.
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