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Post by greyelephant on Jun 11, 2007 18:44:41 GMT -5
Posted by Joe Manzo on Today at 5:00pm My only concern is that we DID get an answer from Hasbro on this, it is also backed up in the QSG and through Brett. SO while the wording is foolish, we can't say a figure that fell over is NOT defeated, because he does trigger the DD and Wolvie effects that go off on "Defeated". |
If we have to go by the Hasbro ruling on this, then why even debate the issue? To me, Superfly makes perfect sense. However, I am going to go with the "official rulings" as opposed to rocking the boat. Joe, should we just bring up specifics or should we start with one and work our way around? I would like to see voting. I am just curious as to how we are going to go about it? Here is the one that always kinda pevs me. I hate that specials have to word the Rallied figure specifically to be able to Rally. For instance, I believe it was Malform and I at Superfly's party were talking about the newer "Flaming O.P.". He pointed out that he won't be able to be Rallied by S.O.P. because he is simply just O.P. I don't like that. Just like Luke in S.T. armor. He is Luke! He is O.P.! I don't see the point. But that does happen to me quite often. ;D
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Post by Joe Manzo on Jun 11, 2007 18:57:00 GMT -5
Posted by Joe Manzo on Today at 5:00pm My only concern is that we DID get an answer from Hasbro on this, it is also backed up in the QSG and through Brett. SO while the wording is foolish, we can't say a figure that fell over is NOT defeated, because he does trigger the DD and Wolvie effects that go off on "Defeated". |
If we have to go by the Hasbro ruling on this, then why even debate the issue? To me, Superfly makes perfect sense. However, I am going to go with the "official rulings" as opposed to rocking the boat. Joe, should we just bring up specifics or should we start with one and work our way around? I would like to see voting. I am just curious as to how we are going to go about it? Here is the one that always kinda pevs me. I hate that specials have to word the Rallied figure specifically to be able to Rally. For instance, I believe it was Malform and I at Superfly's party were talking about the newer "Flaming O.P.". He pointed out that he won't be able to be Rallied by S.O.P. because he is simply just O.P. I don't like that. Just like Luke in S.T. armor. He is Luke! He is O.P.! I don't see the point. But that does happen to me quite often. ;D Yes, calling Luke IN ST is just dumb. It is like saying Han in Black Pants. BUT Hasbro did say Luke in ST IS Luke Skywalker, he can be used by any and all powers that call Luke Skywalker. In response to this question other question. Q: Is "Han Solo" different than "Han as Stormtrooper" when it comes to Special Powers. i.e."Stand up Chewbacca if you have Han Solo in play" Does that work with "Han Solo as Stormtrooper", as well. A: Yes, as long as the figure reads Han Solo anywhere in the title of the figure you may recruit that figure to play. You can use all your Hans as they all have his full name on his base. [HASBRO] As far as that goes, the Hasbro answer I got from Hasbro internal (not the online questions) was Luke as Trooper and Luke Skywalker are the same. Now, you will have to talk to Dave and the Transformers fans to know why Optimus Prime is different than Super Optimus Prime. Battle Droid <> Super Battle Droid Optimus Prime <> Super Optimus Prime Luke as Stormtrooper = Luke Skywalker Can't tell you why it just does. But keep in mind I play by strict Hasbro only rules, so my input may not be best for this community rules board... Superfly already kicked me out I believe
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Post by superflytnt on Jun 11, 2007 19:01:55 GMT -5
Oh HECK no. I value your opinion over almost all others, Joe. And the fact that you are a strict 'Hasbro-tutionalist' has great merit to the discussion as it keeps the rest of us zealots in line.
My point is that some rules, the most heated one right now being the "Defeated" issue, have far-reaching consequences and that we should do our level best as a community to make things right the first time so that we don't ever have to revisit the ghosts of our past, so to speak.
As far as Hasbro goes, they're like the rookie lieutenant straight out of West Point telling the 20 year Master Sergeant how things are to be done - he has the right and the rank, but that doesn't always mean he knows better.
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Post by grievous on Jun 11, 2007 19:02:19 GMT -5
Well, Luke Skywalker = Luke Skywalker but Optimus Prime /= Super Optimus Prime. They're different characters. I'd personally argue that S1 Megatron shouldn't be able to bring in, say, S2 Starter or Movie Megatron because they're different characters.
And, to superfly, there isn't really a "limbo" area. As Joe has said, there is a pause in the playing. It's like when you play a card in a TCG, it isn't in the discard pile YET because it still has to use its effect. THEN it goes into the discard and can be drawn up by the effect of another card. In every collectible game I've played, there are periods where the action is "paused" and effects take place. That's where the argument for Defeated = Knockdown comes from.
Also, defeated does not equal instant rally. Due to the "pause" effect, the character is defeated but not in the defeated pile. Rally affects the defeated pile despite the fact that it doesn't state so exactly (otherwise you could Rally a Vanquished figure). Therefore, one cannot rally a figure that is defeated but not defeated pile.
Again, I have no dog in this fight other than that I currently see it as six of one, half dozen of the other. I see no issues with either line of logic and will be happy with whatever way the community rules.
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Post by greyelephant on Jun 11, 2007 19:04:29 GMT -5
Somebody HAS to be a mediator. Otherwise we are going to have conflict. Should we have a vote on one? Do we want to see who are going to throw their hats into the rings? This way, an issue can be discussed for an appropriated time that is alloted by the mediator. Once the time is up, the mediator will either decide based off of the arguments or cast a voting system.
Now if everyone will agree to these terms, then we need to know. Otherwise we are just going to have ranting and raving on subjects that could last until eternity..................
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Post by Joe Manzo on Jun 11, 2007 19:07:06 GMT -5
I concede Hasbro lets you choose the order, but he isn't in the defeated bin until after Special Powers go into play. He just doesn't go into the defeated bin until the end of the turn, you just have to trust me on that. So he can't be brought back even though you can choose your order of powers. Yes, it is true. Limbo is not mentioned in books, CORRECT! As far as printed proof I have none. NO, this may be the part you don't get. Figures are knocked down. They are defeated. They are defeated waiting to be checked. All figures are defeated at the same time, all figures are CHECKED at the same time. All powers are played at the same time (in order). All figures then go to the defeated area (or stand up if Recovered) I never ONCE said they go to the defeated area, and then checked. They are DEFEATED... this is just a word. They are checked before they go anywhere. They are sent to the DEFEATED AREA or stand up. No, again, I didn't say Knockdown = Defeat = Go to defeated Area. Knockdown = Defeat DONE. Check Defeated figures and SEE if they recover OR go to defeated area. You missed that step
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Post by greyelephant on Jun 11, 2007 19:09:41 GMT -5
I think Joe's head is about to explode! LOL!
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Post by Joe Manzo on Jun 11, 2007 19:10:57 GMT -5
I concede Hasbro lets you choose the order, but he isn't in the defeated bin until after Special Powers go into play. He just doesn't go into the defeated bin until the end of the turn, you just have to trust me on that. So he can't be brought back even though you can choose your order of powers. Yes, it is true. Limbo is not mentioned in books, CORRECT! As far as printed proof I have none. NO, this may be the part you don't get. Figures are knocked down. They are defeated. They are defeated waiting to be checked. All figures are defeated at the same time, all figures are CHECKED at the same time. All powers are played at the same time (in order). All figures then go to the defeated area (or stand up if Recovered) I never ONCE said they go to the defeated area, and then checked. They are DEFEATED... this is just a word. They are checked before they go anywhere. They are sent to the DEFEATED AREA or stand up. No, again, I didn't say Knockdown = Defeat = Go to defeated Area. Knockdown = Defeat DONE. Check Defeated figures and SEE if they recover OR go to defeated area. You missed that step NOW, as far as the Community Rules goes, I have no desire to sway THAT ruling. QUICK! Someone set up a poll. I won't post in the thread or even vote, I have plenty of work ahead of me trying to explain what I wrote above into my OFFICIAL Attacktix Rules Pete, I enjoy the discussion as well... and I do apologize if I have take the role of Jesus' advocate a bit too far, but the dude is here in my computer room hanging out, so I gotta make myself look good.
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Post by superflytnt on Jun 11, 2007 19:11:07 GMT -5
LOL. Can't ride the fence or we'll never get to the truth.
Let me SHORTLY explain my position so we can move on: I feel that a knockdown SHOULD be called a knockdown and not a DEFEAT for the following reasons: 1. If a knockdown is a knockdown, then the 'limbo/pause' never comes into play, making things far more manageable. 2. If a knockdown is INSTANTLY a defeat, then even in 'limbo' it could be argued that a Rally should be able to bring back a multi-killed DEFEATed figure, as per the Special Power verbiage and greatly complicating the management of end-of-life issues ;D Summary: A knockdown is wholly seperate from a defeat, and at the end of an opponent's attack, a pause occurs when figures that are knocked down, at which time the figures are checked for SP occurance in the order that the attacker specifies. When all knocked down figures are checked, the DEFEATED figures go to the defeated area but are IMMUNE from any specials that might include them.
So, let me phrase the question like this:
IRRESPECTIVE OF HASBRO, do you feel that a knockdown SHOULD BE equivalent to a DEFEAT, as applies to the specials ONLY? Please Reply YES, NO, and any thoughts behind it in a concise statement as I did.
I say NO.
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Post by Joe Manzo on Jun 11, 2007 19:17:02 GMT -5
I'll admit, you have me there. If it doesn't say return a figure from your Defeated Area, then I have nothing to support my claim.
I agree if irrespective of Hasbro, NO.
A knocked-down figure should not be the same as a figure sitting in the defeated area. Both of them being called defeated was not good planning.
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Post by superflytnt on Jun 11, 2007 19:21:07 GMT -5
The key is irrespective of Hasbro, otherwise why even bother? We know they're scrood up, so we need, as a community, to make a set of playable rules and perhaps Hasbro can learn a thing or two about how to answer "Ask The Expert", especially when it comes to game continuity.
Good, that's 2 for Defeat <> Knockdown. Any more takers?
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Post by mhfplayer on Jun 11, 2007 19:25:45 GMT -5
The key is irrespective of Hasbro, otherwise why even bother? We know they're scrood up, so we need, as a community, to make a set of playable rules and perhaps Hasbro can learn a thing or two about how to answer "Ask The Expert", especially when it comes to game continuity. Good, that's 2 for Defeat <> Knockdown. Any more takers? I'm not positive what you guys are talking about but if this helps: When I play and a figure is in the KNOCKED DOWN position I check its effect and then it goes to the DEFEATED AREA. Sorry if it doesn't help. EDIT: so therefore in my house knocked down is before powers take place and defeated is after.
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Post by superflytnt on Jun 11, 2007 19:32:59 GMT -5
Good. 3 out of 3 for Defeated <> Knocked Down.
See my definitions:
D
Defeat A figure is defeated when a Knock Down occurs and that figure cannot Recover or Rescue based upon it's special power activation. The figure that was defeated should be moved to the defeated area. Once a figure has been defeated, even if it is later Rallied or otherwise called into play, that player's side will have always had a defeated figure, for the sake of invoking other effects or special powers.
K
Knock Down A figure is considered knocked down when it's base, through attack actions of his figures or opponent's figures, is no longer level with the playing field. This is to include figures that land on top of another figure so that it's base is no longer flush with the playfield. (related topic: Defeat)
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Post by greyelephant on Jun 11, 2007 19:35:44 GMT -5
Brotha, you know I am with ya!
No.
Knock down does not equal defeat.
If a figure is knocked down on the playing field by either of the effect brothers (Wolvie and DD). He is not considered defeated if he has the "recover" ability and is white. Wolvie and DD then do NOT get to make additional attacks.
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Post by superflytnt on Jun 11, 2007 20:14:56 GMT -5
Well, there's 4 for 4 by my count.
The Ayes have it.
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