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Post by Joe Manzo on Jun 11, 2007 11:44:59 GMT -5
How will this section work. Surely we can't ALL list our favorite rules, this should be a definitive collection of FINAL rules agreed on by the community.
It should have NO gray area like Ask the Expert... but we also should note it is NOT official Hasbro rules for the same reason.
I have no problems starting a new board JUST for rules discussion, which can be argued on for a set period, then put to a vote, then goes on the WIki... but again, we will need help to get THAT part organized too.
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Post by grievous on Jun 11, 2007 11:53:57 GMT -5
I figure that having a new board for rules discussion would work out best. That way we have instant access to it rather than having to jump into Tixipedia or whatever, find the rules page, edit the discussion, and wait some more. The Wiki page will, of course, have to contain a large disclaimer proclaiming that these aren't the official rules and merely highly thought-out rules agreed upon by well-educated Attacktix fans that believe they know better than the people who made the game .
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Post by turbomagnus on Jun 11, 2007 12:51:54 GMT -5
First rule, I think, should be the 'anti-Tix-mapping' rule we came up with a while back - that is; that, if possible, a neutral third party should grind figures when they're knocked over before checking for white.
Of course, we came up with that, what? Three months ago or something? so it might not even be accepted as a good rule anymore...
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Post by superflytnt on Jun 11, 2007 14:47:20 GMT -5
Rules that need to be nailed down:
TixMapping - I agree, although it really is a non-issue as we discovered at Tixcon. Vanquish - This needs to be clarified that there MUST be someone to vanquish in order to recover. DEFEATED-This is a BS ruling. Defeated means that the sucka ended up in the Defeated Pile for at least a moment before being Rallied. Knocked down should NOT be equivalent to Defeated. TIX SPEED- This needs to be defined verbatim that you may NOT move extra tix (Grievous) ;D unless granted such on 13s for newer figs, and furthermore that 1" is a basic principle of movement-per-tix. There was a HUGE debate over this. POWER THROW - The act of flinging barrels/rocks... by tipping the figure should be illegal as the base cannot move off of the table or defeat ensues. POWER STRIKE - The act of rotating the base DURING the attack, which I think is perfectly legal as there are zounds of precedent that approves the practice, such as rotating figures before the attack is OK, and after the attack is NOT. LIFTING BASE TO SHOOT OPTIMUS VEHICLE - No base should EVER come off the ground if possible, and especially not to aim. I think that in the case of SOPV it was designed as such to give it a slight disadvantage seeing as it brings in SOP 77%.
Any more disputed rules?
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Post by turbomagnus on Jun 11, 2007 14:55:11 GMT -5
SP's only affecting specifically named figures; Luke/Han As Stormtrooper, Super Optimus Prime, Dark Crumplezone, etc. do not count as "Luke Skywalker", "Han Solo", "Optimus Prime" and "Crumplezone" because the names are different.
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Post by Joe Manzo on Jun 11, 2007 16:00:32 GMT -5
DEFEATED-This is a BS ruling. Defeated means that the sucka ended up in the Defeated Pile for at least a moment before being Rallied. Knocked down should NOT be equivalent to Defeated. Any more disputed rules? My only concern is that we DID get an answer from Hasbro on this, it is also backed up in the QSG and through Brett. SO while the wording is foolish, we can't say a figure that fell over is NOT defeated, because he does trigger the DD and Wolvie effects that go off on "Defeated".
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Post by superflytnt on Jun 11, 2007 16:12:35 GMT -5
And that, my friend, is why we need an alternative to the oft-times confusing, oft-times flying in the face of common sense, and often contradictive rules set forth by Hasbro bro. If everyone unanimously agreed with the Hasbro ruling, why have an alternate set?
And TurboMagnus, I don't know about that ruling on the "Luke Skywalker" is NOT "Luke Skywalker as StormTrooper" as the fact he's in a white suit makes him no less Luke. That, coincidentally was a rule that was confounded and contradicted by hasbro no less than 3 times.
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Post by redemptionrocks on Jun 11, 2007 16:13:44 GMT -5
On the wiki we should have a list of terms so people understand what we are talking on.
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Post by Joe Manzo on Jun 11, 2007 16:34:25 GMT -5
And that, my friend, is why we need an alternative to the oft-times confusing, oft-times flying in the face of common sense, and often contradictive rules set forth by Hasbro bro. If everyone unanimously agreed with the Hasbro ruling, why have an alternate set? And TurboMagnus, I don't know about that ruling on the "Luke Skywalker" is NOT "Luke Skywalker as StormTrooper" as the fact he's in a white suit makes him no less Luke. That, coincidentally was a rule that was confounded and contradicted by hasbro no less than 3 times. Ok, I imagine we could fix the WORDING... but the end result should stay the same? So we should as a community adjust the Special Power to read, IF Wolverine Knocks over... etc.
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Post by turbomagnus on Jun 11, 2007 16:54:56 GMT -5
And TurboMagnus, I don't know about that ruling on the "Luke Skywalker" is NOT "Luke Skywalker as StormTrooper" as the fact he's in a white suit makes him no less Luke. That, coincidentally was a rule that was confounded and contradicted by hasbro no less than 3 times. I think we're trying to say the same thing, that it's a rule that, for the community rules, needs to be decided just what it means and that gone with instead of the wavering and re-interpreting that Hasbro does with it. (Though I will note that I wasn't shortening - the figure DOES say "Luke as Stormtrooper", not "Luke Skywalker as Stormtrooper".)
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Post by grievous on Jun 11, 2007 17:08:37 GMT -5
I disagree about the current "Defeated" ruling "flying in the face of common sense". I think that their are two ways to approach it and neither, at least to me, seems like it is more or less logical than the other.
For example, as superfly has stated before, it doesn't make sense to have a figure declare itself "defeated" and then stand back up.
However, there is also the fact that one cannot "recover" unless one has been defeated and knocked down (which are used interchangeably by Hasbro).
One can say "Why have a defeated pile if they're defeated before they get there?" which makes sense but one can also say "Why have a graveyard if people are dead before they get there?".
One can say "Why should someone get an effect if the target hasn't been fully defeated?" while another can say "Why shouldn't someone get their effect since they were able to successfully attack the opponent?".
If you ask me, the logic holds either way. I'd just hold a simple community vote on what they prefer which, in my opinon, would be the only way to settle this matter. I have no dog in this fight so if someone can logic me over to either side, feel free to do so.
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Post by malform on Jun 11, 2007 17:12:18 GMT -5
I disagree about the current "Defeated" ruling "flying in the face of common sense". Shocker! ;D lol!
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Post by superflytnt on Jun 11, 2007 17:24:39 GMT -5
Joe - I think that regardless of the wording, the ruling by Hasbro is inconceivable. (see Princess Bride?) A figure may indeed be knocked over, but how in God's green earth can a figure be declared defeated when he did nothing more than essentially 'slip', to use a boxing term, and then the referee stands him back up. I will absolutely not be convinced that a knockdown in analogous to a defeat. Defeated to me means removed from play, then play continues, and if he comes back via Rally, fine, but he had to be defeated to be rallied.
Example - Vader gets knocked down along with Padme (I think she rallies leader...). Vader comes up black, so he is defeated. Padme comes up white, and Vader is back in, so he's now Rallied, FROM THE DEFEATED PILE. Conversely, if Vader is white, he pops back up and was simply knocked down, not Defeated. Nuff said. Unless Jesus comes down from his golden throne and tells me otherwise, this is my standing ruling. If others disagree and it goes into print that this is the ruling, so be it.
Regarding Luke, I forgot that! I guess then L/a/S can't come back on a "Recruit/Rally Luke Skywalker". Gay, but at least THAT makes sense.
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Post by Joe Manzo on Jun 11, 2007 18:06:23 GMT -5
Joe - I think that regardless of the wording, the ruling by Hasbro is inconceivable. (see Princess Bride?) A figure may indeed be knocked over, but how in God's green earth can a figure be declared defeated when he did nothing more than essentially 'slip', to use a boxing term, and then the referee stands him back up. I will absolutely not be convinced that a knockdown in analogous to a defeat. Defeated to me means removed from play, then play continues, and if he comes back via Rally, fine, but he had to be defeated to be rallied. Example - Vader gets knocked down along with Padme (I think she rallies leader...). Vader comes up black, so he is defeated. Padme comes up white, and Vader is back in, so he's now Rallied, FROM THE DEFEATED PILE. Conversely, if Vader is white, he pops back up and was simply knocked down, not Defeated. Nuff said. Unless Jesus comes down from his golden throne and tells me otherwise, this is my standing ruling. If others disagree and it goes into print that this is the ruling, so be it. Regarding Luke, I forgot that! I guess then L/a/S can't come back on a "Recruit/Rally Luke Skywalker". Gay, but at least THAT makes sense. I don't know, I never had a problem with the terminology before, it has been in the books from the beginning. When you get knocked over you are defeated. You need to be defeated before you can check your special power. Then that defeated figure goes to the defeated area, or he stands back up. Either way he was defeated by Hasbro's terminology. You just don't like the wording, there is no rule confusion here. So that is why I suggest you say knocked down, not defeated. I mean it's as simple as that. As far as multiple kills on one turn... you actually proved Hasbro's point, and the ONLY way I have been playing for 2 years. Multiple players are defeated (knocked over)... all powers are checked and used in any order (power are ONLY checked if defeated)... THEN those defeated figures go to the defeated area (because they can't be called up in the same turn.) I figure who is DEFEATED in the same kill as another can NEVER be brought back in that same turn (by Rally). He is defeated, just not in the Defeated Area yet, it's that "time freeze/limbo area" that many other card games have while you do your "order of operations" thing. I just got off the phone with Jesus... he said that is how he and his daddy play, so I don't know what else to tell you
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Post by superflytnt on Jun 11, 2007 18:38:42 GMT -5
A figure CAN be brought back - due to the order the attacker chooses, according to 'Bro. If the attacker in said situation says that the order of defeat is Vader then Padme, then if Vader is black, he goes in the defeated area (after all, they go there before anything is checked according to old JC and the boys) and then Padme is checked, WOW, and since Vader has been defeated, and is in the defeated area, then up pops Vader.
Check the FAQ Joe - isn't it the attacker who chooses the order of power incantaion? ;D
And it's not the wording at all. It's the concept. I disagree vehemently (obviously) that a figure is defeated. What you are saying is circular logic and unfounded. You can't say he's defeated, BUT say that he's not rally-able. There is nowhere in any documentation or QSG or ANYTHING any statement of some 'limbo'. That is completely unfounded. So, by that logic, if the guy is knocked down and defeated, then according to the Hasbro rules he can be brought back by someone who was killed at the same time as he was. They BOTH go to the defeated area (according to what you said) and only THEN are they checked, in the order the Attacker chooses (based upon Hasbro precedent).
Now, I actually don't play like that either, that a figure can be brought back by someone who was killed at the same time, but you, by extension of this concept of "Knock-down=Defeat=go to the defeated box then check SP" is fact.
Now you see why the defeated rule has such far-reaching ramifications if the "Knock Down = Defeat". By extension it changes the basic gameplay (or has the potential to do so). And that as you said "You go to the Defeated area then Check", then said "Oh no, there's a LIMBO (which is still completely BS) and they're really there" causes confusion and clear lack of direction, and is a rules paradox - chicken or egg scenario.
The gameplay conundrum is completely solved by saying that a knockdown is a knockdown, and if they are NOT recovered then, and only then, are they are defeated - and at only the loss of a couple of douchebag figures getting a free attack SOMETIMES against only certain opponents.
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