Palpatine vs Mace Windu

[lizardrhinoshocker]

This has been a long source of debate ever since ROTS came out. Did Palpatine let Mace Windu win? Or did Palatine actually try to kill Windu?

I don't feel like typing all the reasons I think he did it, but I say Palps let Windu win.

[lizardrhinoshocker]

I think Palpatine knew Anakin was coming. At one point during the duel Palpatine tried to stab Windu in the chest and he came close, but look and you will see that Palp was bending his arm.

And Yoda disarmed Darth Sidious in the battle, so he did defeat him. Yoda is a better duelist then Darth Sidious.

[Cona Chris]

I think that Palpy let Windu win... I think he could sense Anakin coming and knew when to "go down". He feigns weakness after he shoots the force lightning that Mace absorbs with his saber, but right after Anakin strikes Windu - Palpy unleashes a ton of force lightning (which I think he could have done all along).

[superflytnt]

I am positive that Palpy let him win. He wanted Anakin to be forced to take a side in the war, and he was sure his influence would lead him to the dark side.

NFW Windu could beat Palpatine.

[greyelephant]

Windu won! No way Palpy could keep up with the awesome fighting of Vapaad!


He had him pinned and collared. If not for Annie, Palpy would have been another Ponda Baba. ;D

[Nick Vader]

I agree with greyelephant. Mace Windu was an amazing duelist. I mean, come on, he made his own fighting style! But I'm not sure he's better then Yoda. Our little green friend was beaten by Palpy because the Force was shifting towards the Dark Side and the Jedi were losing their power (it's mentionned quite a few times in AOTC and ROTS). But back on topic. Palpatine did fake his weakness after shooting his lightning the first time, but I don't think he was letting Mace win. I mean, look at his face during the fight; he was totally into it!

[grievous]

I agree with Nick Vader and, to an extent, Cona Chris said.

Palpatine was doing everything in his power to defeat Mace and then feigned weakness when Anakin came in. The Chancellor had his claws deep into Anakin already before this fight which can easily be witnessed by the fact that Anakin was rushing to his aid when he found out Mace and the other Jedi were arresting him (at least, I think that's how it went. Haven't watched Episode III in some time). Even if Palpatine had killed Mace long before Anakin approached, I think he would have corrupted Anakin into a Sith anyways.

With that said, it is my belief that if Anakin wouldn't have shown up then Mace would have wiped Palpatine off the map. If I remember right, according to the novelization, Mace Windu was in a state of shock when Anakin entered. Not because of his presence but because of Windu's gift of sensing "Shatterpoints". These are best described as places that when "struck" cause a series of events that eventually leads to a subject's downfall. Windu was able to see that Anakin was a Shatterpoint for the entire galaxy. This caught him unawares which helped Palpatine and Anakin to get the better of him.

[Deleted]

superflytnt said:

I am positive that Palpy let him win. He wanted Anakin to be forced to take a side in the war, and he was sure his influence would lead him to the dark side.

NFW Windu could beat Palpatine.

As much of a "bad-*** M F 'er" as Mace is, he never stood a chance against Palpatine. I agree with Superfly.

[superflytnt]

Yep - and here's the proof:

Palpatine couldn't have turned Anakin had Windu said that he was going to arrest him instead of the "He's too dangerous to be kept alive - I will end this" bit. The plot was for Palpatine to feign weakness in order to draw Windu into killing him, knowing that this would prove to Anakin that the Jedi were in fact more power-hungry and evil than the Sith. Once Anakin was faced with the grim reality that the Jedi in fact wished the Chancellor to be killed, Anakin jumped to protect him as he realized that with the Sith, at least, he had a shot to save Padme.

So, in short, Palpatine would have whipped his arse. This is also evidenced that in less than 10 seconds he took out Agen Kolar and 2 other Jedi before finally beating Windu (through Anakin).

[greyelephant]

Reading the book I have the impression that Mace won. Vapaad, the fighting style of Mace, is borderline "dark side". Mace absorbs the energy of his opponent and uses it against them. Palpatine weakened under such power and eventually it became too much for him.


Did all here read the book? Or are we just using "educated guesses" based off the movie?

I feel if you read the book you would know that Mace won.

[superflytnt]

Yes, but the books are based off of the "Lucas Universe" which the movies represent...so in reality the books are written by Tim Zahn (If I recall), but George Lucas is the mastermind behind it, who directed the movies. I think watching the movies are the proper way to really understand the vision that GL was shooting for...God knows he spent enough $$ trying to make it exactly how it was envisionined in his mind.

[YodaBreaker]

superflytnt said:

Yes, but the books are based off of the "Lucas Universe" which the movies represent...so in reality the books are written by Tim Zahn (If I recall),

Actually, each novelization has a different author. Terry Brooks did EpI, R. A. Salvatore did EpII, and Matthew Stover did EpIII. GL himself did EpIV, Donald Glut did EpV, and James Kahn did EpVI.

but George Lucas is the mastermind behind it, who directed the movies. I think watching the movies are the proper way to really understand the vision that GL was shooting for...God knows he spent enough $$ trying to make it exactly how it was envisionined in his mind.

Well, as we've seen, the movies leave things somewhat ambiguous As for Stover's vision not corresponding to GL's, Stover said Lucas approved his work line by line. However, I think it's clear from the "special editions" of the original trilogy that GL's vision isn't always consistent (e.g., is Han a rogue who'll kill a bounty hunter in cold blood, or is he a slow-on-the-draw self-defender, or something in between?).

[darthjarjar]

Everything Palpatine did was about Manipulating Anakin and others, every step was well thought out.
Just like Sith Lord thingy Cheney. It all about Manipulation, lies, Fear Anger. "This is the power of the dark side". Yoda

[xanatos]

I think that Mace had the upper hand, and the Palps had no idea how strong Mace was until they actually faced each other. When Ankin came it was quick thinking on Palps' hand that made Mace look like the bad guy. SO yeah, I think Palps did NOT let Mace win...

[majikmonkee]

I think Palp had forseen somehow he would come out of the confrontation, and that Anakin would have something to do with it, but I think he underestimated Windu. I honestly think Anakin's intervention tipped the scales in Palp's favor. I don't believe Palpatine was expecting to be deformed by reflected force lightning - I think Mace caught him off guard with that, and the greater effectiveness of the lightning after Anakin intervened had a lot to do with Mace not having a saber to help deflect it.

At any rate, I think Palp may have been able to predict the outcome of events, I just don't think he expected to take as much of a beating as he did. Most of the information on Mace says that he was either the best or one of the best Jedi duelists, but he wasn't prepared for just how powerful Palpatine was, and Palpatine underestimated Mace as well. That's just my impression from all I've seen...take it as nothing more...