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Post by YodaBreaker on May 30, 2005 9:01:47 GMT -5
I think the apostrophe confusion stems, in part, from the inconsistent way in which English employs it. For example, usually, the singular possessive form is "NOUN's," indicating that the noun coming after it belongs to NOUN. But in the case of the simple gender-neutral pronoun "it," the possessive is "its," not "it's." Why? Because "it's" is the contraction for "it is." Friggin' inconsistent grammatical rules almost make me want to use Esperanto. So, to sum up (in general terms): Singular possessive: NOUN's Plural possessive: NOUNS' Possessive of "it": its I think that clarifies the three cases you spelled out in the initial post Oh, and as for attachment in the Jedi, I'd forgotten about Obi-Wan's remark about "I loved you!" Perhaps Obi-Wan was a bit too attached to his Padawan that way (and no, I don't mean anything more than platonic by that)?
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Link369
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Post by Link369 on May 30, 2005 17:57:27 GMT -5
Ummm...My finger slipped! Fine I won't correct anyone on this forum again(for a day at least).
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Post by darkremj on May 31, 2005 19:41:44 GMT -5
Obi-wan did have some issues of attachment. More of an older brother than a mentor. There isn't a lot of information about how non-Council Jedi acted - it could have been par for the course.
Thinking back about how they acted around each other - after movie 6, Anakin joins the Jedi ghost squad...but Obi-Wan had to learn that from Qui-Gon. Was Anakin just that strong in the force that he could work that out himself? Hmm.
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Post by YodaBreaker on May 31, 2005 19:58:45 GMT -5
Jedi ghost squad...love it ;D
And inasmuch as Anakin was described as being conceived by the Force itself, it wouldn't be exceedingly improbable that he'd end up being able to make himself into a Force specter all by himself.
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Link369
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Post by Link369 on May 31, 2005 22:27:00 GMT -5
The chosen one has the abillity to become a ghost without training.
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Roobione
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Post by Roobione on Jun 1, 2005 11:14:50 GMT -5
ok I will add my 4 credits to this topic.....
IMHO I feel that Anakin fell do the fact that he had immature world view. He said that he loved Padme but in reality did he just have lust issue....hmm
As for Obi Wan ... In reading several of the EU books which I feel give you a better insight thats my thought.. Obi Wan was to young to teach the "Chosen One" I cant remeber where I heard it but Obi Wan during the duel tells Anakin he failed to teach him to think. Which means think for himself, I belive. At one point in AOC Yoda admonishs Obi Wan about being arrogant, I wonder if that style of teaching had more impact on young Anakin....hmm As far Obi Wan telling Anakin he loved him, well as a Dad you have to let your kids fall and learn, but really sucks when they do.. Roobione puts away his soapbox
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Post by sfx5000 on Jun 1, 2005 14:34:27 GMT -5
As Luke rebuilds the Jedi Order do you think he should throw in some reforms? I'm not talking the New Jedi Order books, but ideas from them are always welcome. I know that in those books Luke was married and had a child/children as well as Han & Leia. How did they handle (I realize alot of them were written pre-prequel) attachment with Luke training his children as well as nephews and neices? But I wanted to talk in a more general way (not book specific). Do you feel that the Jedi Code needs some re-tooling? Do you think that if the Jedi had a more open stance on attachment they could have prevented their downfall? Some feel that if the Catholic church allowed their priests to marry they would have avoided 'some' of their current problems. I feel that the code should be changed or at least adapted. Jedi would only benefit from allowing things like family and certain forms of attachment into their ranks. It was the Jedi's strick adherance to one sided dogma that ruined them. It's funny, but in a way, Palpatine had it right. To truly understand the universe you have to understand all of it's facets. Good & Evil, Light & Dark, Love & Loss, etc. A more open minded approach could only help. The Jedi must learn that every feeling, emotion, etc. are beneficial. Some in moderation, of course. Plus it's not like the Jedi have always followed their 'anger, rage is bad, etc.' ideals. Obi-Wan seemed pretty pissed when he killed Maul. And Luke wasn't the model of Jedi calmness when he defeated Vader 'and saved the freekin' galaxy'! So what do you kids think? Would you like to see the 'New Church of the Jedi Order, Reformed'
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Roobione
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Post by Roobione on Jun 1, 2005 15:54:43 GMT -5
As Luke rebuilds the Jedi Order do you think he should throw in some reforms? I'm not talking the New Jedi Order books, but ideas from them are always welcome. I know that in those books Luke was married and had a child/children as well as Han & Leia. How did they handle (I realize alot of them were written pre-prequel) attachment with Luke training his children as well as nephews and neices? Also keep in mind that Luke at these points had no idea because the Prequels were not out. But I wanted to talk in a more general way (not book specific). Do you feel that the Jedi Code needs some re-tooling? Do you think that if the Jedi had a more open stance on attachment they could have prevented their downfall? Some feel that if the Catholic church allowed their priests to marry they would have avoided 'some' of their current problems. The Jedi need to be more human in their relations, that would them to avoid members of the order going rogue by getting married. I feel that the code should be changed or at least adapted. Jedi would only benefit from allowing things like family and certain forms of attachment into their ranks. It was the Jedi's strick adherance to one sided dogma that ruined them. It's funny, but in a way, Palpatine had it right. To truly understand the universe you have to understand all of it's facets. Good & Evil, Light & Dark, Love & Loss, etc. A more open minded approach could only help. The Jedi must learn that every feeling, emotion, etc. are beneficial. Some in moderation, of course. Plus it's not like the Jedi have always followed their 'anger, rage is bad, etc.' ideals. Obi-Wan seemed pretty pissed when he killed Maul. And Luke wasn't the model of Jedi calmness when he defeated Vader 'and saved the freekin' galaxy'! Darth Sidious used the whole you need both sides as manipulation tactic. Granted the order had become so legallistic that it became the easy target that it did. Since most padawans where taken at birth, this created ill will againist them. So what do you kids think? Would you like to see the 'New Church of the Jedi Order, Reformed' The Jedi need to more than just guardians etc... See this agrument in NJO books. Then tell me what you think Roobione out
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Post by sfx5000 on Jun 1, 2005 15:59:37 GMT -5
So, I have to read all 18 or so NJO books before you will elaborate?
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Post by YodaBreaker on Jun 7, 2005 13:58:31 GMT -5
But I wanted to talk in a more general way (not book specific). Do you feel that the Jedi Code needs some re-tooling? Do you think that if the Jedi had a more open stance on attachment they could have prevented their downfall? Some feel that if the Catholic church allowed their priests to marry they would have avoided 'some' of their current problems. Well, as a Catholic, I believe that allowing married priests would open up a larger source of possible priests, thereby letting them kick out the abusive $#!^s, rather than recycling them into parish after parish due to the manpower shortage. Perhaps a better model to contemplate is the Orthodox church, in which priests are allowed to marry, but the higher-up bishops are taken from the ranks of celibate monks. An interesting point, that. It's been said that Mace Windu's fighting style was rather close to the dark side, and that was what allowed him to parry Palpatine's Force lightning. However, I would argue that there are some Jedi who would either not have the maturity (Anakin) or the ability (Jocasta Nu, the arrogant prig of a librarian in EpII) to handle contact with the dark side of the Force. Thus, were I to promulgate reforms for the Jedi, they would involve a three-tiered approach to Force studies. All Jedi would go through a first level of training to teach them in the ways of the light side of the Force (akin to what the younglings go through). This training would also be given in larger groups, as shown with Yoda in EpIII. Those completing this level of training would earn the rank of Jedi Guardian. A second level of training would be opened up only to those who show substantial abilities to commune with and manipulate the light side of the Force without getting a swelled head (thus weeding out Jocasta Nu). This level of training would feature advanced combat training and the manipulation of objects in the environment (such as what Luke was shown to go through in ESB and what one would assume Padawans generally go through). This training would require being apprenticed one-on-one to a current Jedi Knight, as those who complete this training would attain the rank of Jedi Knight. Both these and Jedi Guardians would be allowed to have families, as they would be confined to Coruscant or to ambassadorial assignments that would allow them to stay close to their families. The third level of training would be open only to those who could pass tests similar to what Yoda did with Luke at the tree-cave in Dagobah in ESB. These advanced students would study individually under Jedi Masters and learn to be balanced in their use of the Force. For example, they would be tutored in controlling anger, recognizing its origins, and dealing with it effectively, not abolishing it. Once a Jedi Knight has completed this training, s/he would be eligible for the rank of Jedi Master. From these Jedi Masters, who understand both sides of the Force, would members of the Jedi Council be taken. However, serving on the Council would preclude a Master from having an apprentice. Those wishing to advance to this level would have had to have renounced familial attachments, as they would be the wandering warriors of the Jedi, never to have a place to truly call home. Even the Council members would need to be fully renounced in this way, so as to allow their single-minded devotion to the business of the Jedi.
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MasterTiMothee
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Post by MasterTiMothee on Sept 21, 2005 7:44:56 GMT -5
Many of the failings of the ancient Jedi Code are hinted at in the novelizaton of Episode III. At one point, Yoda realizes that he had trained nearly a millennium of Jedi to fight an old war---the struggle against the ancient Sith---while the Sith had transformed themselves into something more powerful. Also, it is pointed out that, the moment the Jedi moved from peacekeepers at specific points to leaders of a military campaign, they had already lost the real battle.
My opinion on the changes ... At the end of Episode VI, it is ultimately love---and its concomitant tendency toward attachment---that shatters the power of the Sith. Luke hurls his lightsaber aside because he believes there is still good in his father; he loves his father. As he sees his son writhing on the floor, Anakin is unable simply (in the words of Yoda) to "let go of everything [he feared] to lose." Again, he feels some sense of loving attachment to Luke. So, he destroys the Emperor to save his son, sacrificing himself in the process.
It is at this point that the Star Wars mythology deviates most radically from Buddhism and moves more in the direction of Judeo-Christian thinking (although there is precedent for this in the Buddhist Boddhisatva, in which an enlightened individual sacrifices an opportunity to gain Nirvana so that another person may gain that same opportunity).
The resulting changes to the Jedi Code? From my perspective, these would include explicitly allowing for other-centered attachment. In other words, it would not be attachment itself that is forbidden; it would be attachment that focuses on one's own needs instead of the needs of the object of one's attachment. It is, I think, at this point that Anakin failed---his attachment to Padme became centered on Anakin's own needs rather than on her and on the Jedi Order. The victory in Episode VI is achieved not because Anakin lets go of all attachments but because the focus of the attachments becomes the good of others---in this case, of his son and of the galaxy.
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Post by Radar on Sept 22, 2005 1:19:13 GMT -5
Man,... Master Ti is deep.
I just wanted to add a couple of things. I've heard people say (outside the forum) that all religions are the same, and that's true to a degree. Most religions are opposed to murder, primarily because it's bad. Many religions also oppose being consumed by something, wether it is to free your mind or free your soul, there are differences, but these differences are usually deeply rooted in the framework of the religion. I suppose any religious or political group could use Star Wars as an example of their beliefs, but to assume that your belief is the same as the Jedi's is presuming too much. In fact, I heard once that Jedi is actually a religion. I don't know what they believe, but they hold meetings and believe stuff like any other group. George just liked the name so he used it. I also heard that there used to be a Jedi temple in New York, but so many people thought it was star wars related that they actually converted their building into a star wars dojo of sorts, but there is a chance some facts on the last one might be a little off.
But back to Buddhism, I found this to be an interesting story. I learned it in my Kung-Fu class (Kung Fu=China, Karate=Japan, more info upon request). Catholic missionaries went to China to spread Catholicism/Christianity, they met up with some Buddhists and were like "Hey man, so what do you believe?", so the Buddhists were all like "We try to free ourselves from worldly matters and stuff", so then the Catholic dudes said "Cool man, us too, and were friends with this God named Jesus who sets us free from sin too!", so of course the Buddhists were like "what's sin, man?" so the brothers were all "it's a negative lifestyle" so the Buddhists thought that was rad, so they wanted to meet this Jesus God guy...so there were Buddhist Catholics in China for a few decades and the Catholics taught of Jesus, Bible and freedom. The Buddhists taught them culture, and how to free their minds. And for a great deal of time, there was spiritual harmony in China...but then the Pope dude heard what was going on, and since it was like a super long time ago he flipped out and was all "they're either totally Catholics or not Missionary dudes!" And over time, they parted ways. But this greatly misquoted history lesson is to show how some faiths actually can mix one to another. -Radar
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MasterTiMothee
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Post by MasterTiMothee on Sept 22, 2005 9:05:51 GMT -5
Good thoughts ... I wonder if the people who claim Jedi as their religion are doing it because of an actual commitment to Jedi ideals or because of a desire to be "anti-establishment." Honestly, a Jedi religion would be pretty tough to duplicate in this galaxy, given the apparent absence of a Force that allows you to levitate starfighters and retrieve stray lightsabers. (Believe me, I really tried as a kid to use the Force to levitate my cat and to change my brother into a normal human being; neither one ever worked. I even had all the right hand movements down.)
While I might not affirm that all religions are basically the same, I do think that learning about other faiths greatly enhances one's appreciation and understanding of one's own faith. In some sense, I think Star Wars has provided people with a secularized---that is, not explicitly religious---way to do this.
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MasterTiMothee
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Post by MasterTiMothee on Sept 22, 2005 10:28:56 GMT -5
An interesting point, that. It's been said that Mace Windu's fighting style was rather close to the dark side, and that was what allowed him to parry Palpatine's Force lightning. However, I would argue that there are some Jedi who would either not have the maturity (Anakin) or the ability (Jocasta Nu, the arrogant prig of a librarian in EpII) to handle contact with the dark side of the Force. My understanding of the Vaapad fighting style is that the Jedi warrior allows the Dark Side to flow through him or her without allowing any aspect of the darkness to reside or remain in the Jedi warrior---again, a very Buddhist concept. It is a cycle of fully embracing, then fully releasing, the darkness. It's for this reason that Vaapad is so dangerous---it is difficult to release this darkness fully, as evidenced by the fall of Mace Windu's former Padawan in Shatterpoint.
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Post by Radar on Sept 22, 2005 11:12:25 GMT -5
I was not suggesting that ALL religions are the same, merely that there is some continuity between some belief systems. -Radar
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