|
Post by grievous on Jun 25, 2007 12:01:51 GMT -5
Geeze, and you call Hasbro money hungry. ;D
|
|
stvatt
30 Point Captain
Posts: 205
|
Post by stvatt on Jun 25, 2007 13:26:18 GMT -5
You have no proof in your argument that Attacktix is dying other than that it is your opinion. Get some proof and I might understand your opinion. No disrespect meant (I agree with almost every other post of your's I've seen on this board) but opinion /= fact and I don't see any facts so far. There are no signs that Attacktix isn't selling well, at least where I live. I'm still seeing boosters flying off the shelves, even for year-old product (SW4 and TF1 boosters). The only thing that is stagnating where I live are the SW4, TF1, and Ghost Rider starter sets as well as the SW vs. TF battle pack (actually, I've seen two of those sell in the past months so at least those are moving). My logic for virulently defending Attacktix is as follows: 1. Attacktix is a fun game 2. People like to buy fun games 3. People are buying Attacktix out the whazoo (at least where I live) 4. Hasbro is making money from Attacktix 5. Hasbro is making new product to keep up with demand (we've seen previews for a set that will probably come out in a year, showing that Hasbro must be making quite a fair amount of cash to look that far ahead) 6 (Conclusion). If Hasbro keeps making new product and people keep buying it, Attacktix will not die. Is there a flaw in my logic here or am I missing something? Until someone can give me rock-solid facts that point towards Attacktix being in trouble (not some website or user's opinion) then I can't see Attacktix dying any time soon. 1. I agree, but this is an opinion. 2. I also agree, but this is also an opinion. 3. This is a phenomenon not reflected in my area, and therefore should not be considered a trend prematurely. For this trend consult eBay as I mentioned before. Things in demand like iPods or Wii sell like hotcakes because there is high demand. Attacktix has lost buyers on eBay, making it evident that a speculation market was driving it. Even with a much lower supply now you can't give the things away. 4. We assume this is so. 5. Fact. Yes more sets are planned. 6. True, but items 4 and 5 are the only facts to support this conclusion.
|
|
|
Post by grievous on Jun 25, 2007 13:59:43 GMT -5
My logic for virulently defending Attacktix is as follows: 1. Attacktix is a fun game 2. People like to buy fun games 3. People are buying Attacktix out the whazoo (at least where I live) 4. Hasbro is making money from Attacktix 5. Hasbro is making new product to keep up with demand (we've seen previews for a set that will probably come out in a year, showing that Hasbro must be making quite a fair amount of cash to look that far ahead) 6 (Conclusion). If Hasbro keeps making new product and people keep buying it, Attacktix will not die. 1. I agree, but this is an opinion. 2. I also agree, but this is also an opinion. 3. This is a phenomenon not reflected in my area, and therefore should not be considered a trend prematurely. For this trend consult eBay as I mentioned before. Things in demand like iPods or Wii sell like hotcakes because there is high demand. Attacktix has lost buyers on eBay, making it evident that a speculation market was driving it. Even with a much lower supply now you can't give the things away. 4. We assume this is so. 5. Fact. Yes more sets are planned. 6. True, but items 4 and 5 are the only facts to support this conclusion. 1. Yes, opinion, but a very well-informed one. I can count the amount of people whom I have met that have played Attacktix and have not enjoyed it on one hand. A majority of reviews online, offline, here on this site, and on other sites are positive towards Attacktix. Therefore, while a generalization, it is a relatively safe one. 2. Find me a person that doesn't like to have fun and I'll show you a person that can levitate and shoot laser beams out his eyes . 3. Let's see, there's the fact that other people have talked about sets moving, the fact that Ebay has a nice rotation of both old and new figures going, the fact that BigBadToyStore sold out of its Marvel Series 2 Starter within days awhile back (I can dig up proof if needed)... really, there's more than enough proof that this game sells well. 4. Facts that support this point is: 4a. Hasbro is a corporation and, as such, is worried only about its bottom line. If Attacktix wasn't bringing in cash, they wouldn't keep making it. 4b. As of Star Wars Series 1, the line "defied expectations" of profitability which is why it has stuck around. 4c. We have, on record, that SW2 was rushed into production to take into account for this profitability. I can dig up the interview if needed. 4d. Why would Hasbro keep expanding the line if it wasn't profitable. 5. Agreeable point. 6. All facts lead up to this conclusion as stepping stones. Point 1 and Point 2 make Point 3 and so-on. The lower points are here merely in-order to show my thought process. Therefore, my logic holds under your criticism. Nice try, though .
|
|
AWOL
40 Point Warrior
Warning: Kissing Chihuahua On Head Causes Sporadic Pooping, Urination, and Biting
Posts: 820
|
Post by AWOL on Jun 25, 2007 14:49:08 GMT -5
I'll believe that Attacktix is still thriving when I do see people buying them. The main problem is they're no longer in the stores here. Just about a month ago, all the old boosters were stagnating our Targets and Walmarts. Now they disappeared altogether, with no space allocated for Attacktix at all. They're just gone. Like they never existed. Unless the majority of the people buying these things are die-hard Attacktix players, I suspect that a lot of Attacktix players are starting to simply lose interest in them. I like playing Attacktix too, and I think it should thrive. I just don't see it now. We can speculate all we want why they aren't in the stores (delays in releases, waiting for upcoming movies), but the fact is that no one in this area is buying them now that they're gone, and, due to the over-stagnation of old boosters we had for the last 6-8 months, nobody was buying them. They were untouched and literally collecting dust on the pegs (yes, I'm not kidding - dust!!). And now they've been pulled altogether.
|
|
|
Post by YodaBreaker on Jun 25, 2007 14:54:56 GMT -5
You have no proof in your argument that Attacktix is dying other than that it is your opinion. Get some proof and I might understand your opinion. No disrespect meant (I agree with almost every other post of your's I've seen on this board) but opinion /= fact and I don't see any facts so far. Time for me to highlight some of the formal and factual inaccuracies here and in the counterargument. There is a multitude of "fun games" out there, many of which wither and die on the proverbial vine. Many of them never escape the development stage, and many others (e.g., the Star Wars CCG) die after having been out for a while. Furthermore, it's not the number of people that find a game "fun" that's the critical number here. Rather, it's the number of people that find a game sufficiently "fun" to entice them to buy a large enough volume of product to recoup production losses and generate profit. There are multiple paths for this to happen involving resellers, enthusiastic and relatively large-volume consumers, dilettante small-volume consumers, and lots of in-betweens. Even in your experience, how many people that have enjoyed the game have ended up going out and buying their own figures (or have you bought figures for)? That's the bottom line Hasbro's going for. They get paid in money, not enjoyment "Fun" is a necessary but not sufficient condition for someone to buy Attacktix, if "fun" is broadly construed to include game play, collecting, and other such possible hedonic motives. The second point does not follow from the first. There are many ways to have fun above and beyond "buy[ing] fun games," which is what creates a variegated entertainment industry, of which Attacktix is only a minuscule part. Entertainment seekers' monetary resources are limited and thus relatively scarce, so they must choose how to allocate those resources. If Attacktix isn't at the top (or near so) of a typical entertainment seeker's list of priorities, no matter how fun it is, it won't usually be bought by that person. Again, enjoyment <> sales. And if patient confidentiality, my lack of records to find such people, and my ethics weren't issues, I could find you at least two people who didn't like to have fun - they were as close to completely anhedonic as I've ever seen and at least reported deriving pleasure from absolutely nothing (and their flat affects and convoluted cognitive structures made such reports believable). They certainly neither levitated nor shot laser beams out of their eyes in my presence. Potentially insufficient sample for generalization, confusion of inductive (generalizing from the sample at hand - that is, your area, eBay, and BBTS) and deductive (i.e., propositional and predicate) logic. The number of Marvel Starter 2 sets at BBTS is unknown at present and likely represents only a minuscule fraction of the number of sets that will be released worldwide. The definition of "nice rotation" is imprecise, and I'll counter by stating that right now on eBay, there are a total of 114 lots with the keyword "attacktix", down from 400-500 about 6 months ago (the last time I was looking with any seriousness for general Attacktix lots). Thus, the after-market supply appears lower. However, a counterargument to that is the fact that there are 740 "eBay Express" items with the "attacktix" keyword - I don't know what the similar proportion would be for historical item listings. Additionally, eBay Express only came online somewhere around May 15, 2006, so it wouldn't have been available for earlier listings, and it sounds as if it started being used more widely only a "few" months ago. From a quick perusal of the eBay forum threads, it looks like eBay Express isn't highly thought of or useful, either. However, this is a convenience sample of opinion, and a lot of listings do seem to be on eBay Express for Attacktix items This seems to be a reasonable assumption about past performance of the brand, given the data (e.g., statements of representatives) at hand. However, you're using the present tense, and I'm not sure how much money they're making currently in this state of stale product. Nor, I suspect, do you, inasmuch as neither of us are privy to Hasbro's revenue figures, even just those based solely on Attacktix Technically speaking, all we know at this stage is that Hasbro plans on releasing new product. I'm not privy to the actual production schedule (and I'm not sure that anyone here - even webhead817 - really is), though the test shots being released on eBay suggest that the molds are in place and are being used in sufficient volume that test shots can be smuggled out. However, again, what that precise volume is, I can't say. Could be 1 figure (i.e., the test shot itself), could be 1,000,000. Also, as any prospectus will tell you, "Past performance is not a guarantee of future performance." Just because a company has made prototypes and demo'd figures from an upcoming series is not a guarantee that the series will be released (see, for example, the sad fate of Series 2 of Playmates's Marvel Battle Dice and its planned expansions). Formally, this is likely a premise, rather than a conclusion. Let "Hasbro keeps making new product and people keep buying it" be represented by A, "Attacktix will not die" be represented by B, and "->" be the representation of the "if-then" relationship. Thus, the deductive logical argument would be: A->B A ( modus ponens) Therefore, B. Also, I believe you're wanting to argue your way to the conclusion that "Attacktix will not die in the near future", rather than the rather untenable conclusion "Attacktix will not die." The reason it's factually untenable is that the "people keep buying it" part of the argument is imprecisely specified. Two people could buy one of each product that's released, and technically "people keep buying it." However, that's not likely to be a profitable business, as there'll be massive returns from resellers. Yes ETA:
I'll believe that Attacktix is still thriving when I do see people buying them. The main problem is they're no longer in the stores here. Just about a month ago, all the old boosters were stagnating our Targets and Walmarts. Now they disappeared altogether, with no space allocated for Attacktix at all. They're just gone. Like they never existed.
I agree. Players aren't fundamentally being given the opportunity to exhibit whether they are still interested or not. Given the lack of an ability to express their enthusiasm for new product via its presence on pegs, we're in an agnostic situation. I tend to think that it'll still do fine, but that's based on my reckoning of historical base rates.
|
|
stvatt
30 Point Captain
Posts: 205
|
Post by stvatt on Jun 25, 2007 15:11:58 GMT -5
I really would like to know the production numbers for Attacktix, enthusiasm is always associated with new product.
|
|
|
Post by grievous on Jun 25, 2007 15:26:48 GMT -5
Dear Yodabreaker, Don't be such a killjoy. Sincerely, Grievous ;D Seriously though, I enjoyed reading the blasting of my hastily thrown together logic made up of non-proven factual observations that was meant merely to illustrate the point that it is highly unlikely Attacktix will die any time soon. The problem wasn't with the logic, just the premises so it's still a (false) logical statement . Oh, and surely the two "non-fun" people you mentioned must have something they derive pleasure from. Food, sleeping, the look on someone's face when they hear they don't like fun. If there isn't even one thing someone doesn't moderately enjoy, that person must not be human and could possibly levitate or shoot laser beams. (NOTE: Not a logical conclusion or anything beyond a silly thought, no need for a rebuttal from an actual expert on the subject )
|
|
|
Post by superflytnt on Jun 25, 2007 17:50:59 GMT -5
Hey Grievous - my dad can meet you because we'd both like to have the levitating laser-beam eyes. My cousin Kevin has 3 doctorates in aerospace engineering science fields and I have never seen him have fun. In fact, he abhors the idea of anything that does not produce a result.
So, let's see him smartarse!
|
|
|
Post by grievous on Jun 25, 2007 18:19:21 GMT -5
The definition of fun is as follows: something that provides mirth or amusementSurely, your cousin must enjoy producing a result or else he wouldn't do it. If not, then he must be getting these results for a different reason that then lets him derive some pleasure from his work. There wouldn't be any other reason for doing so. Second, perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps someone, somewhere doesn't get any enjoyment from anything in life. In that case, my generalization is wrong to an extent but still the vast majority of people get some enjoyment from something which can then be translated as them having fun even if someone else doesn't think said thing is fun. Oh, and the flying guy with laser eyes is shy. He doesn't want to come out at the moment .
|
|
|
Post by turbomagnus on Jun 25, 2007 18:23:34 GMT -5
(Off-topic, but I've GOTTA say it...)
*Raises an eyebrow.*
...So does this mean that Superman's powers come not from his Kryptonian heritage, but from the enormous stick the blue boy scout has up his bum?
|
|
|
Post by YodaBreaker on Jun 25, 2007 19:38:44 GMT -5
The definition of fun is as follows: something that provides mirth or amusementApparently, ya didn't learn yer lesson about making definitive pronouncements about things a few posts back There are multiple definition of fun, only some of which depend on whether you're using it as a noun, verb, or adjective Says the person who isn't responsible for providing for a family There are lots of other reasons to do a job besides enjoyment of it, particularly when one's training leads one on a certain life path. For many people, a job is explicitly not fun, even when one has trained at high levels to do it. There ya go And turbomagnus, yes. It's what prevents fragments of his home planet from catching him unawares in rear attacks, so it's a stoic necessity Unfortunately for the baddies, it causes a constant surge of adrenaline, and it compresses certain expelled gasses enough to cause...well, untoward levitations.
|
|
|
Post by grievous on Jun 25, 2007 19:43:04 GMT -5
Ah, but why work if you get nothing from it? What I was more meaning was that most people work for money which they then spend on necessary items and then on extracurricular desires. If you gain pleasure from nothing in life then why continue living? Everyone must derive some enjoyment from something. I have no proof of this but nothing makes sense otherwise. Oh, and that's the first definition of "fun" that comes up from Dictionary.com. Sorry for not adding in a "primary definition" clause . I'm sure everyone knows exactly what I meant .
|
|
AWOL
40 Point Warrior
Warning: Kissing Chihuahua On Head Causes Sporadic Pooping, Urination, and Biting
Posts: 820
|
Post by AWOL on Jun 26, 2007 7:46:07 GMT -5
Baahhh! Who cares what the definition of fun is. All I know is that waiting for Attacktix to come out ain't fun at all! In fact I'd say it's just downright immoral!
|
|
|
Post by TheMindFreak on Jul 2, 2007 21:57:55 GMT -5
People say its getting more popular
|
|
attacktixrulz
30 Point Captain
Never mess with a jedi Pooch.
Posts: 211
|
Post by attacktixrulz on Jul 3, 2007 7:21:46 GMT -5
Sorry, just saw attacktixrulz rebuttal and have to point something out... Repaints/re-releases are hardly more prevalent in the new sets than the old ones. Proof!LOL Just saw your 'proof'. Proof for your argument or mine? That % is way too high for me. Good try tho.
|
|