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Post by grievous on Jun 12, 2007 15:45:19 GMT -5
Well, I guess I've been grabbing the wrong Rally figures because the one I most play (S2 Starter Mace Windu) and the one I have the most of (stupid Slave Leia...) both say "Return one of your X to play" with no defeated anywhere in sight. I'll let sleeping dogs lie, though.
As I said before, I vote that wording is read as printed. However, I submit once more that we errata Han/Luke as Stormtrooper into Han Solo and Luke Skywalker. The designers obviously slipped here and did a "Superflytnt wearing a hat" where it should have been just "Superflytnt" sort of thing.
Evade, to me, should work as follows:
1. Evaded figure absolutely cannot be the target of a direct attack. 2. If Evaded figure is killed as part of an attack but was not the direct receiver of said attack, it is stood up exactly where it fell. 3. If an Evaded figure is killed as part of an attack but was not the direct receiver of said attack, if the Evaded figure knocks over any other figures, both the Evaded figure AND any figures knocked over as a direct result of the Evaded figures falling are stood up exactly where they fell.
The logic behind this is simple. An Evaded figure absolutely should not be able to be damaged in any way because the entire point of Evade is evading, therefore one could assume that character is supposed to have a heightened awareness of the action around them. If this is the case, the Evaded character would be able to avoid any threats to its life.
Another reason why this works logically: I believe it has been stated that if a figure falls from anything other than an attack or an effect/power (like Vengeance), it is stood back up. Evade states a figure cannot be attacked. Even if one is not the target of an attack, one can be attacked (see: various impromptu hostage situations). If a figure therefore can't be attacked, it should not be affected at all by any attack and any effects of an attack should be considered null.
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Post by grievous on Jun 12, 2007 16:09:43 GMT -5
Major, major problem with playing figures "as printed". Super Optimus Prime (Robot mode, black base) states the following "Put Super Optimus Prime Vehicle mode into play from your Back-Ups." Skyblast (robot mode) also has this same wording convention in which it adds "Vehicle mode" to the name. Super Optimus Prime and Skyblast (vehicle modes) both state only their name with no "Robot mode" on their Transform power.
This represents a huge snag for the As Written Alliance for if we follow these figures as written, then both Skyblast and SOP Robot Mode figures would be unusable due to there not being any "Super Optimus Prime Vehicle mode" or "Skyblast Vehicle mode" figures in existence.
This leaves us with one of two things, no "As Written" rule or some serious errata-ing of SOP and Skyblast Robot Modes. I vote the second one and I also vote that we do L/a/S and H/a/S while we're at it. It's the same principle for all four figures, they're the same characters but the powers or names are worded wrong. If we're fixing the rules, we should fix those too.
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Post by superflytnt on Jun 12, 2007 16:33:31 GMT -5
Yes I agree that Hasbro did not think things through at all, but in the case of SOP/Skyblast and the S2 Thrust (I think) and s3 Starscream, there is an OBVIOUS and undeniable robot mode and vehicle mode. But, in the same vein, Luke is OBVIOUSLY Luke, regardless of his Gay Pride outfit or otherwise.
So, here we are again, with a conundrum wrapped in an enigma.
On the Evade thing, I disagree only in that figures smitten by the fallen Ewok should not be allowed to live, but the Ewok should stand. The reasoning is that the Ewok evaded death, but if his comrades were killed due to the Ewok falling, well, they shouldn't have been there. Almost like a 100% recover. I still say they should ALL die, as long as the attack wasn't intentional, but for simplicity I'll defer to your logic that Evading figures should rise again. I just can't see the second point that figures killed by an Evading figure should live again.
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Post by malform on Jun 12, 2007 16:41:22 GMT -5
There is only one ruling I am interested in seeing, and Im sorry that it has nothing to do with your current debate. It is however along the same vein as superfly's defeated/knocked down rant. I want a ruling that states that a figure that comes up with a white transform gets moved to back ups, not the defeated pile. Thats it, plain and simple.... And Im willing to break legs and bust heads to get it.
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Post by grievous on Jun 12, 2007 16:45:01 GMT -5
Yes I agree that Hasbro did not think things through at all, but in the case of SOP/Skyblast and the S2 Thrust (I think) and s3 Starscream, there is an OBVIOUS and undeniable robot mode and vehicle mode. But, in the same vein, Luke is OBVIOUSLY Luke, regardless of his Gay Pride outfit or otherwise. So, here we are again, with a conundrum wrapped in an enigma. It's not that hard. Just errata L/a/S and H/a/S and say they count as "Luke Skywalker" and "Han Solo" and errata the Transforms in question to not include the "Vehicle modes". Simple. Hmm... I wouldn't mind dropping the "other figures killed by flying Evaded figure". That's a tiny stretch logically and complicates the rules a bit.
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Post by greyelephant on Jun 12, 2007 16:51:58 GMT -5
Are we digging deeper than we really want to go? Personally, L/A/ST is Luke. You won't get me to budge on that one. I will go by the wording, but I will also say that if it is an OBVIOUS flaw, then it needs to be fixed.
Evade.
Evade means you evade. It is as simple as that. You should not be attacked, knocked over, sneezed over, or bowled over by other figures that were attacked.
If you try to change this you are going to cause sooooooo many arguments as to whether or not someone was "directly" attacking your evading figures.
Here is my example. Over the weekend at the TOTS turney. Y.B. and myself were playing Superfly's custom board. Superfly made a clear statement that you are not to "attack" a command post and use it to throw into other figures. However, I had my figures standing in front and in the back of the command post. Y.B. attacks my figure that is standing in the front and uses the attacked figure to knock over the command post into my other figures that were standing behind it. Was that legal? Technically, he didn't "directly" attack the command post. However, he did fling my figure into it, knowing that it was going to shove the figures behind it out of bounds.
So good friends. Do you feel that is against the rules?
I do. And I also say that inadvertently, directly, or in any way attacking a figure under the protection or Evade, is illegal and that figure stands back up.
I will also say that if an "unevading" figure is surrounded by "evading" figures and a clear shot cannot take place, then the "unevading" figure should be left alone. Note I said CLEAR. That means if he can be reached, then fine go kick his butt. If he is not, what I don't like is that the person can say "well, I was trying to attack OWK, I didn't mean to hit your Wickets. In the mean time you have an OWK who not only wipes out several Evading Wickets, but was also thrown into some other "unevading" figures because the attacker couldn't reach them any other ways.
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Post by greyelephant on Jun 12, 2007 16:56:46 GMT -5
Posted by malform on Today at 5:41pm I want a ruling that states that a figure that comes up with a white transform gets moved to back ups, not the defeated pile. Thats it, plain and simple.... And Im willing to break legs and bust heads to get it. |
I am glad you brought that up. I have thought of it as well. Transform means that you did just that "Transformed". You are not defeated, you , say it with me class, "Transformed". These figures should DEFINITALY be put into backups and not the defeated pile.
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Post by superflytnt on Jun 12, 2007 16:57:04 GMT -5
You know, you're right. That makes perfect sense when stated like that CP analogy. I'm in. I say that Evading figures cannot be harmed, and anyone inadvertantly harmed by their accidental flight should be reset WHERE THEY STAND, not where they started. I see where you're going, Malform, but I just can't justify going that far over the line. Let's say you have an allotted 50 points in backups, and you play RSOP first, having VSOP (not Brandy) in backup with 20 other points in Battle Droids. RSOP is killed, then transforms and heads to the Backups. Well, now you have 60 points of backups when only 50 are allowed. What now? And Grievous +1 for you man! Well, I guess I've been grabbing the wrong Rally figures because the one I most play (S2 Starter Mace Windu) and the one I have the most of (stupid Slave Leia...) both say "Return one of your X to play" with no defeated anywhere in sight. I'll let sleeping dogs lie, though. Good catch. The S2 Starter Mace as well as that Rebel Scum Leia S4 both do indeed simply state "Return a Jedi (or Rebel) to play" What a bunch of dildos at Hasbro. If you look at EVERY OTHER figure (and I checked as many as I could grab) they all say "Return a Defeated X to play". Either way, that doesn't affect the Defeated criterion as it relates to rallies as those particular figures do not specify from whence the rallied figs return. Now I see (based upon the keen observations you made of those 2 figures) why you argued such a strong case for Knock=Defeat.
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Post by malform on Jun 12, 2007 17:01:20 GMT -5
Posted by malform on Today at 5:41pm I want a ruling that states that a figure that comes up with a white transform gets moved to back ups, not the defeated pile. Thats it, plain and simple.... And Im willing to break legs and bust heads to get it. |
I am glad you brought that up. I have thought of it as well. Transform means that you did just that "Transformed". You are not defeated, you , say it with me class, "Transformed". These figures should DEFINITALY be put into backups and not the defeated pile. Yes, exactly.... And I think Pete would go along with it because it goes with his whole "knocked dwon" thing... He gets knocked down, not defeated, then you look to see if hes allowed to transform, if not THEN hes defeated. I see where you're going, Malform, but I just can't justify going that far over the line. Let's say you have an allotted 50 points in backups, and you play RSOP first, having VSOP (not Brandy) in backup with 20 other points in Battle Droids. RSOP is killed, then transforms and heads to the Backups. Well, now you have 60 points of backups when only 50 are allowed. What now? Ummm.... So you end up with more point in your backups than you started with? So what? I dont see the problem. I mean, your team total (backups+starters) is still the same... I just dont see the big deal.... The chances of a double transform are so minimal I dont think anyone is going to care about a little more points in someones backups.
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Post by superflytnt on Jun 12, 2007 17:06:13 GMT -5
I guess you were typing....
What of the backup conundrum where a situation arises that goes against the basic principles of the point value of game/2 = backups?
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Post by greyelephant on Jun 12, 2007 17:06:59 GMT -5
Good point SF! I didn't think about that. I think I am going to have to reverse my thinking.
I guess the way we really need to look at "Transform" is that if you are using that particular figure with the ability to "Transform" then you know what you are getting.
I guess what I am trying to say is if I use a Wicket, I know what a Wicket will get me if he is white. I will get Evade. With SOP you know what you are getting. You are getting Transform. Plain and simple. That is his special. And that is Wickets special. Once used, they are defeated and go to the meat packing factory to be made into hot dogs and fur coats. Or they go to the junk yard and get crushed into those cool looking square cars. I think they are European. LOL!
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Post by superflytnt on Jun 12, 2007 17:08:48 GMT -5
Guys, I have a solution.
We need to conference call to resolve these issues. I have a free conference calling site, freeconferencing.liveoffice.com that allows 249 folks on at once. We can hammer these issues out.
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Post by malform on Jun 12, 2007 17:13:51 GMT -5
Backups is the only logical place a transformed figure can go (seeing that the Indiana "reserve" area doesnt realy exist ;D), because if megatron transforms, his robot mode isnt dead! Thats absurd.
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Post by superflytnt on Jun 12, 2007 17:34:34 GMT -5
I wholly agree in the literal sense. But how's this - as VSOP is hit by a blast from Megatron, he transforms into the RSOP, but was structurally damaged enough that he may no longer transform back. The remedy is that if you have another VSOP in backups, that VSOP is the repaired VSOP (since the damaged one is Defeated, and in the sh-can). ?? Buy that for a dollar?
On it's face, what u and GE are saying is totally correct and I completely agree. My only problem is that we go against settled law, so to speak, regarding Specials. So, we could make the Transform rule such that you may ONLY put a transformed figure into backups if you left enough room in your Backups (that's reserves for the trailerites ;D ROFL) to allow for it.
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Post by greyelephant on Jun 12, 2007 17:41:54 GMT -5
I understand Mal, however my argument is that each figure comes with a specific special. SOP and Megatron specials are "Transform". I think that is the most simple way I can explain it.
You know what you are getting from the figure. Nothing more, nothing, less.
Also, in the future, I would really like to see "transform" evolve into the Star Wars line for Anakin/Vader. And, I don't foresee Vader being able to Transform back into a "young" Anakin that was waiting in the backups instead of defeated pile.
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