Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2007 0:35:24 GMT -5
.....the ruling by Hasbro is inconceivable. (see Princess Bride?)..... "I don't think that word means what you think it means..." ;D Anyways, already many of the rules suggested here have me on the fence. I agree that the best way to resolve rule issues would be to put it to vote. Polls should be made for each of the major dilemmas discussed here, unless of course the polls can be tampered with. Is it possible to vote more than once on a poll? Whatever the case may be, we should exercise the democracy that is alive and well in this forum, and put it to good use for the Wikia's purposes.
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Post by grievous on Jun 12, 2007 6:25:09 GMT -5
I still think Superfly isn't giving Hasbro's logic a chance but I'll let it go since I don't feel like arguing for a point I'm not behind.
Put me down as an "Eh" on the ruling, superfly. Not happy with it, not upset. I'd say the same if it flew the other way...
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Post by superflytnt on Jun 12, 2007 8:29:59 GMT -5
The issue has been resolved. 4 of the 4 that voted said "NO". I made it very clear why I felt the way I felt about it, and that there is indeed a paradox that is created because of it. IT DEFIES logic and the way we've been playing forever. It leaves room for interpretation.
The Knockdown <> Defeated rule change closes that gap, and the people have spoken.
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Post by grievous on Jun 12, 2007 9:46:43 GMT -5
Eh, there's more than four people playing Attacktix, though . Like I said, I could care less. I really have no opinion on it. Six of one, half dozen of the other. Next rule I submit for discussion. "What's in a name?"How should powers that affect characters like Luke Skywalker, Optimus Prime, Megatron, and others with changing names work? Should it be based on whether the name is the same, whether the character is the same, or some other way?
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Post by superflytnt on Jun 12, 2007 10:20:48 GMT -5
I believe that the figures can only be called into play as read. This is because I am consistent on the "What it says, it meant" interpretation of Specials. This is the same issue, in my mind, as the "Defeated <> Knockdown" (let's just forget that argument as settled for the time being though). Just as some figures say "Rally - Return a Defeated 'x' " and not "Rally - Return 'x' from your defeated area" which causes confusion, we should leave the "Luke as Stormtrooper" issue as it rests, that L/A/S cannot be called into play by a Recruit or Rally "Luke Skywalker" since the names are NOT the same on the label. It's gay, but it is what it is.
ONE VOTE OF "NO" FOR LUKE/HAN as ST = Luke SkyWalker/Han Solo.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2007 10:26:23 GMT -5
Another vote for "no". We have enough trouble with certain rulings, we don't need to start paraphrasing text on the figures as well, causing us more trouble in the end. The Special Power brings in exactly, and only, who it says it brings in.
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Post by grievous on Jun 12, 2007 10:28:59 GMT -5
Does Rally say "Return a DEFEATED to play"? All of mine seem to say just "return to play" so if that's where your Defeated <> Knockdown argument comes from, I think you just hit a roadbump...
I'd personally argue that if a character is obviously the exact same character as the one being referred to, the power should count. If it is a different character, the power should not count.
Example 1: Luke Skywalker Luke is Luke, whether his tag says it completely or not. All powers that affect Luke Skywalker would affect Luke whether his tag fully states that name or not.
Example 2: Megatron S1 Megatron (Cybertron edition, I believe) is NOT the same as Movie Megatron. Therefore, powers that are obviously meant to target a specific Megatron (in this case S1) would not be able to target Movie Megatron.
Example 3: Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker In this case, Anakin Skywalker effectively abandoned (killed, from a certain point of view) his identity and became Darth Vader. This makes them separate characters for powers that affect another of the same name.
Logistical Error: Emperor/Palpatine/Darth Sidious Here's the primary sticky point. If we follow my theory above, would one be able to apply an Emperor effect to Sidious or Palpatine?
This theory makes a massive speed bump in the game in exchange for more logical movement. I will happily abandon this idea as I am not attached to it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2007 11:07:25 GMT -5
This theory makes a massive speed bump in the game in exchange for more logical movement. I will happily abandon this idea as I am not attached to it. I'm glad, because the Megatron note especially contradicts what you said about Luke. Though I do agree that movie Megatron should not be affected by TF#16+17's powers. That's clearly a different version of Megatron, but keeping that theory in mind, Luke/a/S should not be affected by anything that affects Luke Skywalker. The reason is: That's clearly a different version of Luke! Using your theory, that would allow my Super Optimus Prime (truck) to transform into S2 "Optimus Prime"(w/ 'force' blast). Even thought the text is clearly different, we still know that it's Optimus Prime, right, so why the heck not?!? Like I said, we need to focus on the real problems at hand, and not start purposely mis-interpreting text. If we start doing that, then everything else that we consider "constant" in the Attacktix world could be up for interpretation.
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Post by grievous on Jun 12, 2007 12:18:47 GMT -5
L/a/S is the same character as Luke, though. They have the same identity. They are both the same Luke that saved Princess Leia, destroyed the Death Star, and redeemed Darth Vader. Movie Megatron is a different Megatron than S1 Megatron just like Optimus Prime is a different Optimus than Super Optimus, they have different identities because they're from utterly different universes. Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker have different identities because Vader ridded himself of the Anakin identity.
As you said, though, this causes a purposeful misinterpretation (to an extent) of text. However, I think there was some serious design oversight with "Luke as Stormtrooper" and they should have just called him Luke Skywalker. They seem to have been smart enough to do this now since Hoth Luke isn't "Luke in Hoth Gear", he's Luke Skywalker. I see no reason why Hasbro called L/a/S that instead of just plain old Luke. I don't see why, then, we should let one design oversight rule out over a massive degree.
Like I said, it isn't an idea I'm attached to, just throwing it out there.
In lieu of the above, what if we unofficially errata ONLY Luke as Stormtrooper and Han Solo as Stormtrooper to Luke Skywalker and Han Solo? It fits with every other figure that has been made before and after them (S2 pre-suit Darth Vader and Armored Vader are both Darth Vader despite a different costume as well as the aforementioned Hoth figures) and would clear everything up without having to do some odd naming rules.
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Post by Joe Manzo on Jun 12, 2007 12:27:48 GMT -5
IMO Emperor/Palpatine/Sidious would all be as different as Anakin/Darth Vader or if they made a Hulk/Bruce Banner. We know Hulk IS Bruce Banner and vice versa.
But "Bruce Banner" and "Bruce Banner in a hat" are the same person, and "in a hat" should not really be mentioned. The "as Stormtrooper" is just a toy division, moving into a game division and making an error. If they choose to correct their error and say L/a/S and H/a/S are the same as than that is fine by me.
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Post by Radar on Jun 12, 2007 12:41:58 GMT -5
I remember this being an issue before in our games. Here's HASBRO's official word: Q: If I kill multiple figures in one shot or strike, who decides the order of special power activation? A: The person whose figures were knocked over decides the order of special power activation. [HASBRO] I liked the way you handled it though. I remember WebHead telling me at the TixCon that the Recovery powers operated first. He said it was in the FAQ, but that is as close as I could find on that info. WebHead, would you please tell us how that worked again?
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Post by grievous on Jun 12, 2007 13:23:12 GMT -5
Cool, glad that someone agrees with me about the "as Stormtrooper" bits.
I vote that powers only affect characters with the exact name as mentioned. However, I also vote that Luke as Stormtrooper and Han as Stormtrooper have an unofficial errata that states they ARE Luke Skywalker and Han Solo.
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Post by superflytnt on Jun 12, 2007 15:11:02 GMT -5
Grievous, if you READ the powers, here's some examples: Gold Nute: Return up to two of your Defeated Droid Army to play. Clone Cmdr 2/8: Return up to two of your Defeated Troopersto play.
So, as you see, that is why I was so adamant that calling a knocked down figure defeated was erroneous and of paramount importance to clear up. But for someone who by his own admission didn't care one whit, why keep poking it with a stick. Call it settled law and move on, for the love of Pete (st. pete, not me).
I just think that we need to leave the verbiage alone. I agree in principle that Joe and you are both right - A luke is a luke no matter what assless chaps or bra and panties adorn him, BUT, if we start to tinker with the verbiage now, there'll be no end to it. So, I say that Luke as ST is not called into play by a Rally-Luke Skywalker simply due to semantics. Same with Optimus Prime and Super Optimus Prime. If the Label reads the EXACT name that's on the knocked down figure, then fine. If there is a different spelling (that's not an obvious blunder on 'bros part) then it should not be allowed so that we might remain in the realm of continuity, and to try to adhere to Hasbro where it makes sense and doesn't cause trouble down the road. If people want Luke as ST to come back in, then it can be a house rule rather than the ARC Unofficial Rules.
I know it's semantics, but by overlooking the fact that "Luke is Luke as ST" and just going by the ideology that the label should read exactly as the power indicates will overwhelmingly help the game of Attacktix as a whole by reducing confusion, as Grievous indicated in the Emperor=Sidious=Palpatine analogy, which was quite insightful as to the mindset of a Star Wars scholar. It's just one can of worms that we need to leave closed - 2 or 3 figures don't get to have a special, but in the long run it helps the game as a whole from getting overly complicated.
By my count, that's Joe for label "interpretation" and Grievous, Myself and DoNP against.
Let's just leave it for now as "The Power Needs To Be Read Literally" and move onto the next.
Let's look at this question:
SHOULD FIGURES THAT HAVE BEEN GRANTED EVADE STATUS BE CONSIDERED IMMUNE TO ALL FORMS OF HARM AND IF HIT SHOULD BE STOOD UP, OR DOES THIS ONLY IMPLY THAT DIRECT ATTACKS ARE FORBIDDEN?
I will recuse myself on this one, as I am a bit on the fence. I believe that a figure who is 'evading' should not be immune from death, only immune from DIRECT attack. My basis is that the game will again become a pissing contest if someone inadvertantly impinges an Ewok with a flying figure, who in turn kills some others - the argument will be that all the figures killed by the illegally damaged Ewok should be righted as he was immune from attack.
So the vote is 0 For, 0 Against, and 1 Abstain.
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Locke333
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"Don't mistake coincidence for fate."
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Post by Locke333 on Jun 12, 2007 15:18:28 GMT -5
I think you should just use common sense and whatever is fine with your opponent should go, because I for one agree with grievous and Superfly about the "as stormtrooper", but I disagree about the effects.
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Post by superflytnt on Jun 12, 2007 15:26:03 GMT -5
Unfortunately, Conor, common sense is hardly common, and in order to document a finite set of enforcable rules, there needs to be limitations.
Which effects?
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