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Post by YodaBreaker on Mar 14, 2007 22:06:04 GMT -5
In relation to a 1965 court case (US vs Seeger) the Texas Tech Law Review wrote, "The Seeger decision defined religion as all sincere beliefs based upon a power or being or upon a faith, to which all else is subordinate or upon which all else is ultimately dependant." In light of these definitions, I'm not sure Jedi really qualifies as a religion. I don't know what their particular practices are (and right now I really don't have the time to research them) but if the article is even close to correct then a lot of it sounds more like a really intense Star Wars fan club. And it could also mark a general apathy toward religion. That these people would rather be associated with Star Wars than anything else out there. According to this site, it would appear that this was started more as 1) a way to make the government's request to state one's religion a risible farce and 2) a social experiment to test the power of e-mail. This site also states that it intended to have a forum to codify the Jedi religious practices, but the site for the forum to do so was defunct and expired when I clicked on it. Nevertheless, I could still see how devotion to "the Force", if not to the Jedi specifically, could grow into a religion. In particular, Lucas's attempt to externalize the Force through Qui-Gon's dialog with Shmi in EpI might make the Force out to be an external "ultimate" to be venerated, rather than the emergent property of life itself that Yoda described it as in the original trilogy. In EpIV, Obi-Wan describes the Force as "an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together." Similarly, in EpV, Yoda states that "life creates [the Force], makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter." Thus, the Force would not seem to appear independently of life itself. Rather, it arises from living matter to give it additional properties. In contrast, the prequels seem to indicate that the Force acts through the conduits of the midichlorians as an independent entity. In EpI, Qui-Gon states that "without the midichlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to us, telling us the will of the Force. When you learn to quiet your mind, you'll hear them speaking to you." Similarly, Palpatine notes in EpIII that Darth Plagueis "could use the Force to influence the midichlorians to create life." Thus, in the prequels, the Force is something that exists outside of life, an entity that can only be known through the conduits of a pseudobiological endosymbiont. This apparent inconsistency in the Star Wars saga's conceptualization of the very nature of the Force might seem to be a death knell to the nascent Force-based religion, on the face of it. Nevertheless, multiple religions around the world have managed to gloss over or patently ignore even more blatant contradictions about the nature of the ultimate in their scriptural canons I'd say that the Jedi (or more broadly, Force devotion) could be construed as a religion by either definitions 1 or 4 of "religion", particularly using definition 1 of "religious" to describe the study of the Force (definition 2 of "religious" is too recursive for my taste). Furthermore, I still think one could use the Star Wars movies as the scriptural canon for that religion, with all of the EU materials representing apocrypha (or deuterocanonical material, depending on the sect - akin to how the Catholics include the First and Second Books of Maccabees in their Bible, whereas Protestants don't). Indeed, I'd be tempted to interpret the original trilogy Force as Tanha in Buddhism. The Force of the prequels seems to be more of the deist divine. As for Yaggleberry Finn's question, I say none - if we're talking about the Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth. Sufficient verisimilitude is impossible for human conduits to produce, especially given our abysmally limited knowledge about more than our infinitesimal speck of the universe. It's even harder to divine Truth if one's epistemological system ignores or is hostile toward empirical inquiry into how the world is observed to work. ;D And who would have though ANY of this would come from ME of all people! Not I, said the frog ;D
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Post by grievous on Mar 15, 2007 7:46:42 GMT -5
Ah, yes, topics on religion in a message board where it doesn't quite fit. What fun . I'll cut to the chase on my opinions and make them as short and sweet as possible. First, in my opinion Jedi-ism from the movies is most like buddhism, if it is like anything at all. I've never seen or read about Jedi kneeling before The Force or proclaiming it as the one true path or attempting to convert people to their cause, they merely use it like they use their left leg. I believe that other groups in the Star Wars universe do have a religious version of The Force (can't remember for sure) but the Jedi seem a lot like Buddhists to me, contemplating rather than worshiping. Second, I believe it is possible for faith to be true. I'm like superflytnt, not a big church person but I do have faith. The reason I believe it to be possible is because of the chance that a religion/faith is NOT man-made but is indeed divinely made. If that is the case then it does not matter how "abysmally limited [our] knowledge" is if some of it was given to us by a divine being. Third, I believe that anyone should be allowed to worship or have faith in anything they want. what you decide to believe isn't my decision. However, I do believe in absolute truth and just because I respect a person's decision to believe what they want doesn't mean I can't think they're wrong. I don't believe in relativity in cases like this, I just believe in "living and letting live". Fourth, I don't believe it is possible to prove or disprove a religion/faith via scientific means. The core element to basically all religions and faiths are spiritual in nature and, as such, can not be proven or disproven via the use of "in-universe" thought. It also doesn't help that people will often mold their religion (not necessarily their faith) to fit any issues that come up with it or they'll deny proof even exists of the other or they'll logic their way out of the argument (in this case not a bad thing). The only way to know if a religion/faith is true while using matters in the physical realm would be a worldwide event that leaves undeniable proof. A second coming by Jesus, someone wielding Force Lightning and taking over a country, you need a massive event like these to prove or disprove a religion/faith here on Earth. The only other way is to wait until you die and after that there's no turning back. There, Grievous on religion in four paragraphs. If you feel like grilling any of my points, feel free. However, I won't be arguing with you over them. I don't like doing so with people I know, let alone people I don't.
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Post by Radar on Mar 15, 2007 13:36:57 GMT -5
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Post by superflytnt on Mar 15, 2007 13:59:53 GMT -5
You are the best! That was so informative that AGAIN I feel compelled to Exalt you!
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Ataru
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Post by Ataru on Mar 15, 2007 15:45:57 GMT -5
Ah, yes, topics on religion in a message board where it doesn't quite fit. What fun . I'll cut to the chase on my opinions and make them as short and sweet as possible. First, in my opinion Jedi-ism from the movies is most like buddhism, if it is like anything at all. I've never seen or read about Jedi kneeling before The Force or proclaiming it as the one true path or attempting to convert people to their cause, they merely use it like they use their left leg. I believe that other groups in the Star Wars universe do have a religious version of The Force (can't remember for sure) but the Jedi seem a lot like Buddhists to me, contemplating rather than worshiping. Second, I believe it is possible for faith to be true. I'm like superflytnt, not a big church person but I do have faith. The reason I believe it to be possible is because of the chance that a religion/faith is NOT man-made but is indeed divinely made. If that is the case then it does not matter how "abysmally limited [our] knowledge" is if some of it was given to us by a divine being. Third, I believe that anyone should be allowed to worship or have faith in anything they want. what you decide to believe isn't my decision. However, I do believe in absolute truth and just because I respect a person's decision to believe what they want doesn't mean I can't think they're wrong. I don't believe in relativity in cases like this, I just believe in "living and letting live". Fourth, I don't believe it is possible to prove or disprove a religion/faith via scientific means. The core element to basically all religions and faiths are spiritual in nature and, as such, can not be proven or disproven via the use of "in-universe" thought. It also doesn't help that people will often mold their religion (not necessarily their faith) to fit any issues that come up with it or they'll deny proof even exists of the other or they'll logic their way out of the argument (in this case not a bad thing). The only way to know if a religion/faith is true while using matters in the physical realm would be a worldwide event that leaves undeniable proof. A second coming by Jesus, someone wielding Force Lightning and taking over a country, you need a massive event like these to prove or disprove a religion/faith here on Earth. The only other way is to wait until you die and after that there's no turning back. There, Grievous on religion in four paragraphs. If you feel like grilling any of my points, feel free. However, I won't be arguing with you over them. I don't like doing so with people I know, let alone people I don't. I won't grill any of your points, because you stated that you have simply stated what you believe, not what's true. However, I would like to ask one question, if you don't mind: of what "faith" are you?
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Post by grievous on Mar 15, 2007 16:45:22 GMT -5
I'm a Christian of the "mere" variety. Like I said, I believe all that I said as true but don't like to argue points on religion because it is basically impossible to convince anyone to change their views.
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Post by superflytnt on Mar 15, 2007 17:01:17 GMT -5
Tell it to the Dune C......ahem....members of the Religion of Peace. They convinced me of a few things about their Religion....
Forecast for Mesopotamia: "10,000F and cloudy!"
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Post by greyelephant on Mar 15, 2007 17:13:03 GMT -5
Did you watch that video of Radar's?
1. Aussies know how to throw down! Party animals!
2. The council general, John Olsen, has caterpillars for eyebrows. Do you think that he paid to get those?
3. 70,000 in Australia? 390,000 in England? Creepy!
4. Do you really think that they hold some sorta vigilance in robes with candles? I think that they were sacrificing virgins to "The Force".
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Post by Yaggleberry Finn on Mar 15, 2007 18:24:32 GMT -5
2. The council general, John Olsen, has caterpillars for eyebrows. Do you think that he paid to get those? That's funny stuff, thanks for the laugh
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Ataru
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Post by Ataru on Mar 17, 2007 14:01:38 GMT -5
I'm a Christian of the "mere" variety. Like I said, I believe all that I said as true but don't like to argue points on religion because it is basically impossible to convince anyone to change their views. I see. I know what you mean about it being difficult to change people's views, and you can't do it alone. God can assist, and He will. So yeah, I'd rather try, because with God, all things are possible. And everyone needs Jesus' Salvation. I would prefer to tell them about Jesus, and if they will not believe, well, they won't, and I can't make them. However, I can show through my actions (which is very hard) how Christ has changed me.
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Nick Vader
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Post by Nick Vader on Mar 22, 2007 20:02:52 GMT -5
A funny thing is that people at my school make fun of me because I like (love, mind you) Star Wars. They think I eat drink and sleep star wars *glances at Darth Vader sheets*. But they're a lot more ridiculous then I am when they make fun of me! (They keep swinging their hands and making lightsaber noises etc.)
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greevy
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Post by greevy on Mar 22, 2007 20:41:50 GMT -5
A funny thing is that people at my school make fun of me because I like (love, mind you) Star Wars. They think I eat drink and sleep star wars *glances at Darth Vader sheets*. But they're a lot more ridiculous then I am when they make fun of me! (They keep swinging their hands and making lightsaber noises etc.) Luckily the Star Wars geek in me has made me the go-to guy for any action figure questions at my work (TRU). You should your taunters saber noises as a challenge and do battle with your spring loaded light up blade you stow away in your back pocket (if you indeed do).
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Post by Turkish Van Cat on Mar 23, 2007 9:46:17 GMT -5
How old does one have to be to work at a TRU? Is the cutoff age 16? I hope not. That must be a really cool job; it is irksome not being quite 16 yet. It can be very frustrating when looking for a job. Right now, I weed to earn my money.
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AWOL
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Post by AWOL on Mar 23, 2007 10:36:54 GMT -5
Whether or not people really take the Jedi code to be a religion, is it really a bad thing that people actually do take it to heart? As a probation officer, I see hundreds of young people getting into gangs every day. We can argue until we're blue in the face about whether it's good or bad to view the Jedi code as a religion. But let's get real, if people actually started to follow the Jedi code, the world would be a better place to live in. As a Christian myself, I have to follow man-made codes to some extent (ex. law, taxes, daily jobs). I'd rather see young people getting into the Jedi code than the Gangster Disciples. I think it could start young minds on the right path to seeking God. I think it's silly to think of it as a religion, but it definitely is a philosophy, and any good philosophy is a start in the right direction, because wether or not we follow a god, we all have a philosophy.
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Nick Vader
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Post by Nick Vader on Mar 23, 2007 11:50:18 GMT -5
How old does one have to be to work at a TRU? Is the cutoff age 16? I hope not. That must be a really cool job; it is irksome not being quite 16 yet. It can be very frustrating when looking for a job. Right now, I weed to earn my money. I'm in the same position as you are. And the Jedi Code is really more of a philosophy then a religion. It is better to believe you're a Jedi then to stab someone just to be accepted into some stupid gang. I live close to Montreal and we hear about that kind of thing every day.
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